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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:44 am 
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Location: Alcamo-Sicily-Italy
Dear All,
this is my first topic in this forum, so I shortly introduce myself to you.
I am an Italian 48yo man, living in the west side of Sicily Island (even if I am most of the time abroad because of my job).
Since I was 16yo I have been using kayak at sea, initially just for surfing and trekking, later I started fishing too.
Some months ago I decided to update my old kayak with a new one, at the beginning I was interested in taking a Pedal Hobie Kayak, such as Revolution or outback, but after a long thinking I decide to buy a second hand Hobie Adventure Island.
I am still waiting the day I will launch it at sea for the first time (maybe next month), but in the meantime I am collecting information regarding the safety and security equipment to be held during sailing trips, and expecially the law limitations regarding the maximum distance that an AI/TI can reach from the coast.

I found out that the issue is not clearly specified by the Italian law, probably because of the special craft they are.

I try to summarize what is my current concern:

According to the European Craft Construction Directive, the AI/TI must be munufactured following the specifications included in the following EC directive:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2013:354:0090:0131:EN:PDF

According to this, Hobie Europe provides a sort of conformity declaration (see example http://www.mondokayakfishing.it/forum/download/file.php?id=5889), where it is specified that the Hobie AI/Ti is manifactured according to the "D Category" (please have a look to the previous directive at page 37 Annex 1).

The Italian law specifies that the craft that are compliant with D category are very limited in navigation:
this http://www.fog.it/legislaz/l-05-0171-a2.htm is the link where you can read the Italian law limitation for D Category.

I provide an English translation of the "D Category Limitations":
Italian:
D. In acque protette: progettate per crociere in acque costiere riparate, in piccole baie, laghi, fiumi e canali, in cui la forza del vento può essere pari a 4 e l'altezza significativa delle onde può raggiungere 0,3 m, con onde occasionali di altezza massima pari a 0,5 m, ad esempio a causa di imbarcazioni di passaggio.
English
D. In protected water areas: designed for protected coastal water areas cruise, small bays, lakes, rivers and channels, where the wind strenght cannot be more than 4 (Beaufort Scale) and the waves height cannot exceed 0,3 meter, with occasional wave height of 0.5 meters, caused by crossing boats.

Can you please help me understanding if my analysis is correct?, and additionally can you please share the rules and limitations can be applied to Hobie AI/TI in your countries?

Thank you very much, and sorry for the long boring post.

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Biagio


Last edited by Blasius on Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:05 pm 
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Location: Southwest Calif.
Wow ! You sure know how to take the fun out of sailing ! :)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:36 pm 
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Location: High Point, NC
Here in the USA, you can take a Hobie Adventure or Tandem Island and set sail for Europe, China, or even Antarctica if you want. You might not make it, but that's your own business.

About the only consideration from the authorities is that government sponsored rescue operations cost all of us, therefore the continuing argument over whether people who take it upon themselves to do things they maybe shouldn't do, shouldn't expect to be rescued if things go bad. Which may be why your Country has such laws and limits in place.

Although we seem to be losing more freedoms every day here, I take solace in that if I want to do something really stupid and aren't putting others at risk, I still can, for the most part.

Beyond that I'd say your analysis per your Country's navigation limits per craft type are correct. The Island boats aren't meant for heavy seas or long distance trips where you might incur such conditions. So the outline given in your "D" below would seem to fit the Island design parameters.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:02 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Your post was not boring, quite the opposite in fact.

I have a suspicion European Union laws have a similar "blind-spot" with Hobie Islands like my local State legislation (New South Wales, Australia). You can check on this by seeing what category a Hobie Adventure gets (not the Island). I suspect you will find that they do not differentiate between (say) an Adventure or an Adventure Island, despite them being extremely different in terms of capability in open water.

Here in my State, an AI or TI is classed as an "off-the-beach" vessel, and NO safety equipment is required (unless there is room to store it) other than a life jacket, and NO limitations on weather conditions or distance from shore. Of course, I carry flares, sea marker dye, VHF w/- GPS, GPS plotter, Navionics navigation app on cellphone, sea anchor, bottom anchor plus 85 metres of anchor line, hand bearing compass, first aid kit, emergency rudder, spare water, bilge pump,space blanket, torch, removable masthead light, personal SOLAS strobe light and personal locator beacon w/- GPS (PLB). Our legislation also requires an EPIRB if 2 nautical miles off shore, but boating safety officers I have spoken to (these are the people policing compliance) agree with me that a PLB is far more practical than an EPIRB, as the signal is the same, just that the EPIRB is designed to float upright and last for 48 hours (instead of 24 for the PLB). I wear mine on my shoulder when offshore, so the signal will not be affected if I am in the water.

As a general comment, I suspect that the European safety rules, which provide graduated capability limits according to the specifications of the vessel, are a good idea, especially combined with graduated skill requirements for crew.

Before I got into sailing, I bought a copy of the Glenans Sailing Manual, the "textbook" for the famous french Glenans Sailing School. They provide training from beginner to the ultimate level (for the latter, I believe they sail across the Atlantic!). The thoroughness of the manual can be gauged by the inclusion of a chapter dealing with "Morale in a liferaft"! I recommend people who are really interested in learning the maximum regarding safety on the water read this manual.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:29 am 
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Location: Alcamo-Sicily-Italy
Salty Dawg wrote:
Wow ! You sure know how to take the fun out of sailing ! :)

My fun wishing list is very long, but it does'nt include any kind of fine taken from Coastal Guard :(

PS: my previous posts have been stopped for half a day after a simple editing and a normal reply, is that the rule of the forum?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:53 am 
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:22 am
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Location: TI ... Roma ( italy) mediterranean sea
the problem being in Italy :
 1 ) my TANDEM ISLAND lacks the regular CE mark ( European Community ) small plaque mandatory specification of the law.
2 ) the class D of law , in which it was entered the island, leads to travel exclusively in sea water sheltered from the waves ( lagoons ) and small bays.
3 ° ) but there are places in Italy with sea water sheltered from the waves ( lagoon ) and small bays and therefore it is not possible to go overboard in Italy .
4 ) These major limitations to the use of the Island there has been deliberately hidden from the dealer ..... and now in Italy are " illegal law " when we are in salt water also 100 meters from the coast.

Why Hobie Europe and my dealer has hidden the problem of law in Europe by entering a hull without the " CE mark " with the mandatory features of European law ?

If I put in my saltwater tandem , the Italian coast guard fine and maybe I seized the boat TI because irregular .


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:58 am 
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Location: TI ... Roma ( italy) mediterranean sea
sorry error :
3 ° ) in Italy there are NO places with sea water sheltered from the waves ( lagoon ) and small bays and therefore it is not possible to go overboard in Italy .


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:19 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 1990
Location: High Point, NC
Unfortunately, you live in a country where it appears your government believes it has a responsibility to protect you from yourself. We're getting more and more like that here, but not yet to that extent. Natural selection still weeds out the numbskulls here, and I am happy that I still have the freedom to be a numbskull if I wish.

However, back to the reason why Hobie Europe doesn't provide the CE stamp or certification - perhaps the guidelines in place there won't allow them to do that. The Islands are very capable boats, but perhaps they don't meet the criteria required in order for a manufacturer to certify the boat as being capable of those type waters. I would think it's more than just putting a stamp or certification on the hull - there must be some parameters in place that the boat must pass, and if it doesn't or can't, then I guess you're stuck.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:20 pm 
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Location: Alcamo-Sicily-Italy
Tom Kirkman wrote:
Here in the USA, you can take a Hobie Adventure or Tandem Island and set sail for Europe, China, or even Antarctica if you want. You might not make it, but that's your own business.

That's wonderfull, can some of you provide a VISA for me?

Tom Kirkman wrote:
About the only consideration from the authorities is that government sponsored rescue operations cost all of us, therefore the continuing argument over whether people who take it upon themselves to do things they maybe shouldn't do, shouldn't expect to be rescued if things go bad. Which may be why your Country has such laws and limits in place.

My country (Italy) belongs to European Community, Italian regulations are based upon the European Directive that any European country MUST follow. Any country can apply some additional restriction based on specific reasons, but that is not the case, Italian law for "D Category" specify just additional details regarding the limitation but basically it is the same as it is in any other country.
As far as I know "D Category" specified by European Directive is based upon international standards.


Tom Kirkman wrote:
Although we seem to be losing more freedoms every day here, I take solace in that if I want to do something really stupid and aren't putting others at risk, I still can, for the most part.

I agree, but I prefer to avoid to do stupid things! :D

Tom Kirkman wrote:
Beyond that I'd say your analysis per your Country's navigation limits per craft type are correct. The Island boats aren't meant for heavy seas or long distance trips where you might incur such conditions. So the outline given in your "D" below would seem to fit the Island design parameters.

If my analysis is correct it means that Hobie must advertise that an Hobie Island (Ai o TI) has to be considered just like a toy (in european countries), you cannot sail it in 0,3meter waves, that means you can use it only in your bathtube!
That is making me upset

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:34 pm 
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tonystott wrote:
Your post was not boring, quite the opposite in fact.

Thanks Tony

tonystott wrote:
I have a suspicion European Union laws have a similar "blind-spot" with Hobie Islands like my local State legislation (New South Wales, Australia). You can check on this by seeing what category a Hobie Adventure gets (not the Island). I suspect you will find that they do not differentiate between (say) an Adventure or an Adventure Island, despite them being extremely different in terms of capability in open water.

That's not true in Europe, because according to the European Directives no category specification for a Kayak is required.
Please have a look to the art. 2 of the EC directive I referred in the previous post.

extract from art. 2:
This Directive shall not apply to the following products:
(a) with regard to the design and construction requirements set out in Part A of Annex I:
....
(ii) canoes and kayaks designed to be propelled solely by human power, gondolas and pedalos;


tonystott wrote:
Here in my State, an AI or TI is classed as an "off-the-beach" vessel, and NO safety equipment is required (unless there is room to store it) other than a life jacket, and NO limitations on weather conditions or distance from shore. Of course, I carry flares, sea marker dye, VHF w/- GPS, GPS plotter, Navionics navigation app on cellphone, sea anchor, bottom anchor plus 85 metres of anchor line, hand bearing compass, first aid kit, emergency rudder, spare water, bilge pump,space blanket, torch, removable masthead light, personal SOLAS strobe light and personal locator beacon w/- GPS (PLB). Our legislation also requires an EPIRB if 2 nautical miles off shore, but boating safety officers I have spoken to (these are the people policing compliance) agree with me that a PLB is far more practical than an EPIRB, as the signal is the same, just that the EPIRB is designed to float upright and last for 48 hours (instead of 24 for the PLB). I wear mine on my shoulder when offshore, so the signal will not be affected if I am in the water.

That's wonderfull!

tonystott wrote:
As a general comment, I suspect that the European safety rules, which provide graduated capability limits according to the specifications of the vessel, are a good idea, especially combined with graduated skill requirements for crew.

I totally agree.

tonystott wrote:
Before I got into sailing, I bought a copy of the Glenans Sailing Manual, the "textbook" for the famous french Glenans Sailing School. They provide training from beginner to the ultimate level (for the latter, I believe they sail across the Atlantic!). The thoroughness of the manual can be gauged by the inclusion of a chapter dealing with "Morale in a liferaft"! I recommend people who are really interested in learning the maximum regarding safety on the water read this manual.

Good to know, I will follow your suggestion, thanks

_________________
Biagio


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:22 am
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Location: TI ... Roma ( italy) mediterranean sea
Blasius wrote:
If my analysis is correct it means that Hobie must advertise that an Hobie Island (Ai o TI) has to be considered just like a toy (in european countries), you cannot sail it in 0,3meter waves, that means you can use it only in your bathtube!
That is making me upset


I await with many customers AI and TI Italian and European a response from hobie oceanside

ps) sorry for the automatic translator from English


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:52 pm 
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Location: Alcamo-Sicily-Italy
Tom Kirkman wrote:
Unfortunately, you live in a country where it appears your government believes it has a responsibility to protect you from yourself. We're getting more and more like that here, but not yet to that extent. Natural selection still weeds out the numbskulls here, and I am happy that I still have the freedom to be a numbskull if I wish.

That's is true, the reason of that is based on the reasoning that if you don't care about your life and you safety, you will be a cost for the government in case an accident occurs, and this gives them the right to be responsible on your behalf.

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Biagio


Last edited by Blasius on Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:17 pm 
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Location: sarasota,fl
maurizio :
I own a 2012 Tandem Island and there is a CE plaque in front of the front mirage drive. With a 'D' classification

Image

I'm assuming all boats leave the factory with that plaque installed.

My TI has a 'D' CE certification (you outline the CE classification correctly). CE certifications are not enforced in the US (but in my opinion are pretty good safety guidelines)


In the US they have what they call small craft advisory, which is issued if the winds are over 20 mph and the waves are more the 3 or 4 ft (I'm not sure of the exact rules). Whenever a small craft advisory is posted by the weather service all small craft must return to shore (seek sheltered water).
Also I believe the US coast guard frowns heavily if you take a small craft more than two miles off shore without the proper safety equipment on board (they have the guide lines on their web site).

I know in my area (gulf coast and the Florida keys) pretty much anywhere I go is heavily patrolled by the coast guard and local authorities, and if they see anything unsafe or out of the ordinary they will force you to shore. I've had quite a few patrol boats come up to me while out on the water, but have never been asked to return to shore, I suspect most of them just want to check out my cool boat ( LOL).

Perhaps the CE plaque was removed for a reason, if your offshore in Europe and get pulled over if there is no plaque displayed, they wouldn't know what the actual classification of your TI is (because there is no plaque), so they would probably leave you alone. I suspect that's the reason it may have been removed....
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:12 pm 
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Location: Alcamo-Sicily-Italy
Regarding the CE plague I think there was a misunderstanding, I checked in my AI (2011) and the CE plague is there, and the "D Category" is reported as well.

So please let's continue the discussion referring to the initial post and anybody please remove any reference to the missing CE plague.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:52 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Unfortunately, it does seem that you are restricted to using your Island within the limitations of category "D".

To be quite honest, my regular use of my own TI would probably be at least 80% within those limitations, sailing on my local 74km2 lake, but I would think that almost every single time I sail into the ocean, the wave height would be greater than 0.5mm.

While I firmly believe that I am much safer in the TI compared to the typical powered runabout, with my three sealed hulls, wide beam and furling sail, I can (reluctantly) see why an Island is classed as category "D".

Maybe getting that visa isn't such a bad idea! :D :D :D :D

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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