Return to Hobie.com
Hobie Forums
It is currently Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:04 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:48 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2893
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
It would be interesting to find out from Hobie Europe as to why the Hobie Island only has a CE Category "D", when Windrider 17. WETA Trimaran, and Laser Performance Laser are category "C".

I would imagine that only having category "D" must be a serious impediment to Hobie Europe's marketing efforts.

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:54 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:53 am
Posts: 289
Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
Blasius wrote:

"D Category" is enforced by Hobie Europe located in Holland on behalf of Hobie USA (manifacturer) and valid in every european country and every european user must be aware of that and use the AI/TI trimaran accordingly.

Biagio


Not entirely correct. I live in Sweden (an european country) and I dont give a rats ass for what is stated in the CE classification.
I use my AI accordingly to weather and my own experience. Mayby the CE mark will make the AI easier to sell but that is all to it for me.

br thomas


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:27 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3059
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Tony:
The answer is very simple and very understandable, and in my opinion very well thought out by the manufacturer (Hobie ... liability wise), and threads thru and around all the international rules and regulations very wisely (legality wise).

The examples I gave ( Windrider 17, WETA, Trimaran, and Laser Performance boats) are all sold in their minimum configuration, and cannot be used in any other way, basically you cannot take the AMA's off a Windrider or Weta and use it for anything else besides a bathtub (or bouy). Since the safety and conformance labels (both US and EC) must be clearly placed on the main hull of a craft and applies to the main hull (where occupants sit). Since the TI can be used as a kayak without any sails, AMA's, tramps, etc the plaques and ratings apply only to the kayak alone ( ie... 2 occupants, 600 lbs weight capacity) because that is the weight capacity of the hull itself (minimum configuration that the boat is considered a complete craft.

This is despite the fact that you cannot purchase a TI without the sail/AMA kit, Hobie has no control on how you use it after purchase.


So the CE 'D' classification is completely legitimate for the Tandem Island kayak (no sails or AMA's, or tramps), which would be considered add on options to the minimum configuration. Legally Hobie can only plaque the boat for it's minimum human carrying capacity because they have no control over when or how people put the optional equipment onto their boats or how the boats are used once they leave the factory. As an example if some moron looked a the "C" rating on the hull then took his Hobie kayak (kayak mode only with no AMA's or sails) 10 miles out to sea in high winds and heavy seas and floundered everyone would feel bad.

Also clearly stated on the TI hull is the weight capacity of 2 occupants and 600 lbs max weight bearing capacity (passengers and gear), this is the weight capacity of the kayak. Hobie has no control over if someone adds the optional tramps to their kayak, I know personally we have many times been out with 4 or more people on board with one in each seat, and 1 of more on each tramp, with no problems, as I'm pretty sure almost everyone with a TI has done, actually if you look at Hobies advertising photos and videos you can see 3-4 people (or more with kids) on board TI's.

I can give a perfect example of circumstances, last summer we went out scuba diving off key west during mini lobster season, there we 6 of us (all adults most over 200 lbs). We each had full dive gear with two tanks each, along with BC's, weight belts, coolers for the lobster, dive flags, and food and beverage coolers, plus a couple hundred miles worth of fuel (2.3 gallons), etc. I had 4 adults on the TI along with some gear, we were pulling two kayaks (with 1 person on each), and also an inflatable 4 person boat with 650 lbs capacity (what we call our lifeboat). Most of the tanks and gear were in the lifeboat. I always carry 6 lifejackets on board my TI plus each kayak had 1 PFD. My TI has 260 sq ft of sail in total, and with the motor, we are able to make pretty good headway even with a large load (which doesn't seem to slow the boat down a whole lot). Obviously my TI is modified and re-enforced for open water, and I have all the required safety gear for offshore use, and most importantly I'm sailing in my home waters that I know very well, plus I follow the weather forecasts very closely and only go out in conditions that I know the boat can easily handle (basically winds under 15 mph and seas below 3 ft), We had a coast guard skiff pull along side and they talked to us, they were familiar with the TI and were admiring ours and actually suggested a couple places we might try diving for lobster. These guys are safety minded and I'm sure if they had any questions about our safety they would have made us go ashore. If the boat had appeared overloaded and about to sink or flounder, or we didn't have enough life jackets on board the CG would have surely taken control.

As a side note on towing, we often tow other TI's and kayaks and inflatable boats with our TI, when towing the dingy we find it best to tie to the center rear of our TI with a 20-30 ft rope tied to the bow of the inflatable, it actually tracks really well, and doesn't effect my steering, when we have additional kayaks as well I have them hang onto the sides of the inflatable, we literally only lose about 1-2 mph to our speed. When towing another TI, I use the same rope but tie it to my rear AKA bar (with a slip knot), then instruct the other TI to tie to their front AKA bar, I then have them sail behind and to the right of me at around 45 degrees to my rear (about 20-25 ft away from me), this way I don't spoil their wind, we can both steer, and their sails add to the total propulsion, we can easily together do 6-7 mph in 6-8 mph winds as long as they keep their sail trimmed properly, of course every mirage drive available has to be pedaling to maintain those speeds. When there is no or really light wind I prefer to tow only Hobie kayaks with the mirage drives (no more than 4), this way they are pulling their own weight, and as a group we actually get somewhere (we call it the party barge). PS you can't haul gear only in a kayak, it has to be people, otherwise they tip over.


This was our catch for the day, we had a blast, and didn't really care how many lobsters we caught, it was so much fun just going out.
Image

Just my 2 cents on the subject, I'm fine with the classifications as posted on the boats, as I assume legally you cannot have 2 different plaques on the same boat, the plaque should be stated (as it is) in the minimum transportation configuration. Besides as Tony points out, these classifications are only for new manufactured boats sold in the US or Europe and required to be posted on the boat by the manufacturer. What you do with your boat and how you outfit it they have no way of knowing how you will use it after you bought it.

Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:42 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:22 am
Posts: 47
Location: TI ... Roma ( italy) mediterranean sea
I do not understand how the Hobie Class D marking an island automatically preclude you from selling Islands in Italy and in almost all over EUROPE for marine use.
In Italy there are no marine protected waters .... only Venice has protected waters ( lagoon ) .
But I think similar problems in Spain, France etc etc .
Why Hobie ISLANDS wants to sell to surf in Europe only in the rivers and lakes ?
Maybe they do not know the Tyrrhenian Sea or the Adriatic Sea (sea Italian ) are equal to the Lake Superior or Lake Michigan ?
 I would like to get an answer from marketing Hobie !
They can not change the category in C ?



ps ) I'm skipper with European license for sailing boats ( motor and sail ) up to 77 feet ......
When I bought the tandem island , I have been hiding this issue of Cat D and I did not have any documentation ...... and all that is hidden in all of the websites of retailers EUROPEANS !

 I'm at sea are now subject to the seizure of ' island by the Coast Guard


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:44 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:28 am
Posts: 63
Location: Alcamo-Sicily-Italy
fusioneng wrote:
Tony:
The answer is very simple and very understandable, and in my opinion very well thought out by the manufacturer (Hobie ... liability wise), and threads thru and around all the international rules and regulations very wisely (legality wise).
.......

Bob

Thank you Bob for the exciting post and very interesting opinion you shared.

_________________
Biagio


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:36 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2893
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Bob, according to the documents I have seen, a kayak does not need certification at all, unless it has sails. So Hobie has hedged its bets by going for category "D".

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:50 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:20 pm
Posts: 273
Location: London UK
CE marking sets minimum requirements of a boat which guarantee its suitability for sale and use and is self certified in classes C & D.
There is minimal testing required to self certify in the lower class and this is why one would think the manufacturer certifies in class D.

The CE rating is a mark of minimum capability to sell something and not a restriction on its use.

Now in the UK we have laws where you a master of you own destiny, so to speak and nobody is going to come up and look at your CE mark and tell you that you should have a C rather than a D. Particularly if you are sitting there with all the necessary safety equipment. They just want to see that you are taking the best possible precautions.

Clearly this is different in Italy where I presume that there are laws that say you shall only do this with a boat CE rated at that. Are there?

Quote:
"D Category" is enforced by Hobie Europe located in Holland on behalf of Hobie USA (manifacturer) and valid in every european country and every european user must be aware of that and use the AI/TI trimaran accordingly.


I don't think anything is enforced. Hobie certify category D and if you want a category C then you don't buy a Hobie as you have pointed out.

Code:
I would imagine that only having category "D" must be a serious impediment to Hobie Europe's marketing efforts.


I doubt it until we all turn into nanny states. The coastguard here come over for a chat and to check you have flares, radio etc. I do not believe that they have any powers to stop you sailing whatever you like, wherever you like. As far as I am aware there is no LAW requiring me to have a CE certified boat. There may be one that requires the bloke selling it though.

Quote:
I'm at sea are now subject to the seizure of ' island by the Coast Guard


I am sorry to hear that. So the coastguard came along, checked your CE mark and then impounded your boat. Sounds positively medieval.
Please share with us the laws upon which they seized the boat and then we may be able to offer a bit more assistance.

Quote:
according to the documents I have seen, a kayak does not need certification at all, unless it has sails. So Hobie has hedged its bets by going for category "D".


I agree. putting a sail on it does not stop it being a kayak. Otherwise you would not have a sailing kayak. So you could pull the CE off and argue it does not require certification. That for our Italian chums might be the answer.

CC

_________________
May the odds be ever in your favor..
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:30 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3059
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
It sounds to me like the pillow law in the US, for years every pillow ( ie bed and couch pillow) was required by law to have a label put on by the manufacturer stating the origins of the materials and content ( probabably for people with allergies to pigeon feathers, goat fir and cow dung fillers from the pillows coming in from the third world lol). The law had good intentions but the result was every pillow on every couch and every chair and every bed in every house had all these labels on them and all law abiding citizens (basically every man woman and child in the us) never removed the labels because the label stated " label not to be removed under penalty of law". Basically though put in place with good intentions because people were getting sick from some of the junk being imported, the law was stupid. About 30 yrs later they amended the law to add the words " except by consumer", now every one is happy and now they remove the obtrusive labels. My mother until she died still refused to remove any of her labels.
If it were me I would just pull the label off put it in a drawer, if they stop you claim it's a kayak and exempt and just go out and have fun and don't worry about it. We will come visit you in prison if I'm wrong. If you sell the boat just put the label back on. That's what I would do.
We call it playing the "it's just a kayak card over here" we do it all the time over here with our islands to skirt around some stupid laws put in place before sailing kayaks came along ( which is only recent), and laws take a long time to catch up with reality.
Actually all of us play that card all the time at public beaches where you are not allowed to launch any power boats or PWC's, we go up to the life guard and ask 'can I launch my kayak here' they say sure, then we come out with this huge Island 20 ft long and ten ft wide with massive sails ( LOL), I do it all the time....., nearly everyone with TI's seldom register their boats in Florida claiming guess what "It's just a kayak" even though the law states anything over 18 ft must be registered.
Bob


Last edited by fusioneng on Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:45 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:22 am
Posts: 47
Location: TI ... Roma ( italy) mediterranean sea
Chopcat wrote:

I don't think anything is enforced. Hobie certify category D and if you want a category C then you don't buy a Hobie as you have pointed out.
CC






Chopcat ..... I am in agreement with you.
A customer chooses whether to buy or not to buy an Island in category D.
But I wonder why this news of the law are not declared before the 'purchase from retailers HOBIE Island?
Why are not all website mentioned in the Hobie Europe and even in sitiweb of retailers in the description and characteristics of the model?

I would like to know why certain classes of regulations and restrictions I come to discover after the purchase?
I want to know, choose and decide before buying an ISLAND!

The problem of the boating restriction is common throughout Europe, including in the United Kingdom

http://www.bluestarsurveys.co.uk/CE_Mark_flyer[1].pdf the link does not appear in its operation ....

test http://www.bluestarsurveys.co.uk/downloads.html click on "The CE mark and what to look for "


Last edited by maurizio on Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:59 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:20 pm
Posts: 273
Location: London UK
maurizio

As I say I do not know of any law here that prevents me from sailing anywhere on the sea on anything. Yes we have safety surveys, we have one for our cruiser on the Thames. That relates to a safety inspection and not some European sticker that anyone can self certify.

You may have such a law in Italy but we certainly do not have one that is enforced here in the UK and I would be interested to hear of any other EU countries that have such a law.

As your link says the CE mark is a guide to what you are buying. It carries no legal weight (here at least)

CC

_________________
May the odds be ever in your favor..
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:35 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:53 am
Posts: 289
Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
maurizio wrote:
The problem of the boating restriction is common throughout Europe, including in the United Kingdom


No I dont think there is a boating restriction about the use of any small craft vessels, coming from the CE mark.

Not in UK according to Chopcat and certainly not in Sweden. There are too many boats that do NOT have the CE mark.
Must be the same in Italy. Do you have one law for boats with CE mark and another for boats without?

Seems crazy to build a law based on different manufacturers selfmade ideas of wich design class that is propriate to their product.
It must be some missunderstanding here. The CE mark is law in EU for the manufacturers - not the users.

BTW I dont think it is so easy to peal off the label, it is molded in the plastic hull in my AI from 2012.

best regards
thomas


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:03 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2893
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Have you guys in Italy actually asked one of the police (or whatever authority it is which enforces the rules) for their opinion?

I make it a point to often talk to my local Boating Service Officers (these people patrol the waterways carrying out safety inspections and enforcing speed limits etc), and in general, they are highly supportive of Hobie Island users. When I was planning assembling a bunch of us sailing on a local lake which opened to the sea, one even suggested he would launch his RIB nearby in case we needed him!

You might find out that they are impressed that you are thinking about safety, and the complete opposite of the "fun police"

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:30 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 3059
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Actually you guys are money ahead even if they impound a couple TI's (which they won't) because all the other boats I listed are triple the cost of a Hobie adventure boat.
I agree with Tony instead of all of us just speculating, it would be a good idea to just ask someone who knows. At least around here I find all the authorities very friendly and willing to advise what type of safety equipment to bring, and recommend good places to go, as they are out there every day. Nearly every officer I have talked to tells me they have been looking at the TI's and would love to own one.

Also keep in mind with the TI (released in 2010) Hobie invented a whole new market and boat category of family fun boat classification for us former power boat people who can no longer afford to get out on the water with conventional power boats (and PWC's) but still love the water (gas here is $4.50/gallon at marinas).
In our case after selling our Sea Ray power boat (which cost us $60k plus $350/mo storage, plus $150 in fuel every time we went out) we took up kayaking, and quickly realized just how large the Florida Keys and South gulf coast really are, we only felt safe on our basic kayaks a few hundred feet from shore, and only in very protected water, and would never venture more than a mile or so from launch, then come back 2-3 hrs later exhausted from paddling. We got very bored with that very quickly. As snorkelers/scuba divers we also love to go out to the coral reefs (which are typically 5-10 miles off shore in the keys), or even if just snorkeling, all the interesting areas are at least a few miles from where you can launch (unless you like looking at bare sand ( LOL)).

Chartering a powerboat or going on a dive excursion would typically cost us around $800 dollars. With our TI we can now go out all day diving, snorkeling, of just exploring for about a buck (in fuel) (that is if we use the motor at all, which is not needed if there is any wind at all). We have no problems going 20-40 miles per day, going pretty much anywhere we want to go. That's what the TI is all about, and worth every penny, it's basically our SUV, and we are out on it every weekend all year round.

I'm sure it takes a while for laws to catch up with reality.
Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:52 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:28 am
Posts: 63
Location: Alcamo-Sicily-Italy
tonystott wrote:
Have you guys in Italy actually asked one of the police (or whatever authority it is which enforces the rules) for their opinion?

As I wrote in the previous post I am currently abroad (Oman), that will be the first thing I will do when I will be back to Italy.

tonystott wrote:
You might find out that they are impressed that you are thinking about safety, and the complete opposite of the "fun police"

I hope so, I never had a boat in Italy (just kayaks), so I never faced coastal guard police.

_________________
Biagio


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:01 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:28 am
Posts: 63
Location: Alcamo-Sicily-Italy
Kal-P-Dal wrote:
Do you have one law for boats with CE mark and another for boats without?

That's not an Italian law that specify which boat must CE marked and which no, it is the same EC directive I already posted that specifies for which boats it is required. As for example Kayaks (if only human powered) or special boats to be used in competition or ancient Vessel reproduction, are not required to be CE marked.
According to the that, Italian law (and I suppose it is the same for the other countries), specifies different limitations for boats CE marked and no CE marked. A kayak (no CE marked unit) for example cannot exceed the distance of 1 mile from the coast.

Kal-P-Dal wrote:
Seems crazy to build a law based on different manufacturers selfmade ideas of wich design class that is propriate to their product.
It must be some missunderstanding here. The CE mark is law in EU for the manufacturers - not the users.

That's the main issue, I opened the topic just to have a clear understanding.

Biagio

_________________
Biagio


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
© Hobie Cat Company. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group