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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:08 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Actually you guys are money ahead even if they impound a couple TI's (which they won't) because all the other boats I listed are triple the cost of a Hobie adventure boat.
....
Bob

Thnks Bob, for your exciting post.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:04 am 
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Blasius wrote:
Kal-P-Dal wrote:
Do you have one law for boats with CE mark and another for boats without?

That's not an Italian law that specifies which boat must CE marked and which no, it is the same EC directive I already posted that specifies for which boats it is required. As for example Kayaks (if only human powered) or special boats to be used in competition or ancient Vessel reproduction, are not required to be CE marked.
According to the that, Italian law (and I suppose it is the same for the other countries), specifies different limitations for boats CE marked and no CE marked. A kayak (no CE marked unit) for example cannot exceed the distance of 1 mile from the coast.

Kal-P-Dal wrote:
Seems crazy to build a law based on different manufacturers selfmade ideas of wich design class that is propriate to their product.
It must be some missunderstanding here. The CE mark is law in EU for the manufacturers - not the users.

That's the main issue, I opened the topic just to have a clear understanding.

Biagio

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:43 am 
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"Italian regulations state that skippers wishing to sail more than six miles offshore in Italian waters need to hold an International Certificate of Competence (ICC). They also need to be able to produce the registration document for the boat and a valid insurance certificate. There is no lifeboat service in Italy and emergencies are dealt with by the Guardia Costiera."

One would think that as you are within 6 miles you dont need the ICC but I suspect you do need the registration and insurance. Perhaps the registration process means you have to show the sea worthiness of the craft? It all stems from the SAR (search and rescue) strategy which presumably you have to pay for and therefore need to be insured.

Anyway keep us posted at to what actual law they say you are breaking and we will put our lawyers wigs on.

CC

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:33 pm 
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Blasius wrote:
Kal-P-Dal wrote:
Do you have one law for boats with CE mark and another for boats without?

That's not an Italian law that specify which boat must CE marked and which no, it is the same EC directive I already posted that specifies for which boats it is required. As for example Kayaks (if only human powered) or special boats to be used in competition or ancient Vessel reproduction, are not required to be CE marked.
According to the that, Italian law (and I suppose it is the same for the other countries), specifies different limitations for boats CE marked and no CE marked. A kayak (no CE marked unit) for example cannot exceed the distance of 1 mile from the coast.


Biagio


That is not what I meant. CE certificate is just needed for small craft vessels built 1998 and later (or maybe after 1998), something like that. I suppose you have lots of older small craft vessels. In fact I think the majority of all small craft vessels do NOT have a CE certificate. And I think it is same in Italy and Sweden (and most EU countries).

So why should you have authorities that interpret different laws for boats with CE certificate and without?

thomas


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:35 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
maurizio :
I own a 2012 Tandem Island and there is a CE plaque in front of the front mirage drive. With a 'D' classification

Image

I'm assuming all boats leave the factory with that plaque installed.

My TI has a 'D' CE certification (you outline the CE classification correctly). CE certifications are not enforced in the US (but in my opinion are pretty good safety guidelines)



marking the CE (European Community) applies only to the manufacturer to be able to legally sell a boat in Europe.
Purchaser 's boat instead only affects the Category D which strongly limits the use of ISLAND in all European countries (mandatory law of the European Community)
carry legislation in category D:
D. SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered
coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals When
conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant
wave heights up to, and including, 0,3 m may be experienced,
with occasional waves of 0,5 m maximum height, for example
from passing vessels.

for information if the rules had been introduced into the C category slightly higher .

C. INSHORE : Designed for voyages in coastal waters , large bays ,
estuaries , lakes and rivers where conditions up to , and including ,
wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to , and including ,
2 m may be experienced .


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:18 pm 
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We seem to be going round in circles. Please be assured that we are all trying to find ways for you to get maximum enjoyment from your Islands.

I would still like to hear what a member of your Guardia Costiera (Coast Guard) has to say, if you can meet one where you are able to show the Island (telephoning their office could find you talking to someone who will just quote the rulebook). It appears that it would be good for you to obtain an International Certificate of Competence (ICC), and to also make sure you equip the Island with sensible safety equipment (eg equivalent to whatever is required for travelling up to 6kms offshore), as I would think you would be demonstrating that you are thinking seriously.

I would like to hear of their reaction

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:25 pm 
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Some answers to CE marking process can be found at:
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/maritime/faq/index_en.htm

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:18 am 
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After some googling on the internet and some reading of articles in my own language (swedish), I have come to the conclusion that the CE certificate is valid in all EU countries and apply to production, marketing and selling, not the use of the product.

When it comes to laws, rules and regulations for the use of small craft vessels in EU, there is absolutely nothing that is common in the different EU countries. There are rules for canals, for custom/toll, for coasts, for registration, for alcohol, for fishing, for competence (all these affects the use of small craft vessels) and all differs for separate EU countries. This is a natural result of different history, different coasts, different climate, different politics.

So what laws and rules that is valid in Italy I dont know.
But they can, most certainly, not be read out from a certificate for the CE design class.

br thomas


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:41 am 
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Kal-P-Dal wrote:
After some googling on the internet and some reading of articles in my own language (swedish), I have come to the conclusion that the CE certificate is valid in all EU countries and apply to production, marketing and selling, not the use of the product.

When it comes to laws, rules and regulations for the use of small craft vessels in EU, there is absolutely nothing that is common in the different EU countries. There are rules for canals, for custom/toll, for coasts, for registration, for alcohol, for fishing, for competence (all these affects the use of small craft vessels) and all differs for separate EU countries. This is a natural result of different history, different coasts, different climate, different politics.

So what laws and rules that is valid in Italy I dont know.
But they can, most certainly, not be read out from a certificate for the CE design class.

br thomas

Thomas,
let's suppose I am a Swedish user and I have 2 boats, one "C Category marked" and another one "D Category marked",
can I use both of them in the same sea areas?
Can I use both of them in the same weather conditions ?
Is there no difference usage limitation and everithyng is under my responsability?

If the answers to all the questions in your country will be yes, I suppose it will be the same in every european country.
Of course I will try to get an official unswer from Italian Coastal Guard directly as soon as I can, and I will let you know the official statement.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:45 am 
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tonystott wrote:
We seem to be going round in circles.


tony you're right.
but this document is mandatory to have the purchaser (EUROPE) and follow the island even when it is resold to other users, but hobie dealers seem to want to hide the category in which it was placed the hull.


Image


tonystott wrote:
I would like to hear of their reaction


and in fact I also would like to know something directly from HOBIE, because they have limited the use of the Island?
Also because in Italy are put on the European boating market with the CE mark, Category C ...... small boats less security as in this photo.

Image

length 9 feet (2.80 meters) sail area 4.80 square meters.
last line written: CE approved units, the design category C

it is possible that this mini boat is greater security to a hobie island?

tonystott wrote:
I would like to hear of their reaction


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:25 pm 
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Blasius wrote:

Thomas,
let's suppose I am a Swedish user and I have 2 boats, one "C Category marked" and another one "D Category marked",
can I use both of them in the same sea areas?
Can I use both of them in the same weather conditions ?
Is there no difference usage limitation and everithyng is under my responsability?

If the answers to all the questions in your country will be yes, I suppose it will be the same in every european country.
Of course I will try to get an official unswer from Italian Coastal Guard directly as soon as I can, and I will let you know the official statement.


Yes you can use them both in the same areas.
Yes you can use them both in the same weather conditions.
No there is no difference in usage limitation and everything is under your responsability.
As long as we are talking about usage in Sweden.

No you cannot draw the conclusion that this applys to every european country.
As I wrote in my previous post:
"When it comes to laws, rules and regulations for the use of small craft vessels in EU, there is absolutely nothing that is common in the different EU countries. There are rules for canals, for custom/toll, for coasts, for registration, for alcohol, for fishing, for competence (all these affects the use of small craft vessels) and all differs for separate EU countries. This is a natural result of different history, different coasts, different climate, different politics."

@maurizio
Well you know that in US there is big business for layers to drag everything to court. Of course Hobie keep a little lower profile when declaring what an Adventure/Tandem Island realy can manage. There is allways some idiot beliving all that is written to the letter and he will find at least 10 layers that could see a clear case.

Maybe this is just a good story, but I have heard that a man in US bought a Winnebago and put it on cruise control. Then went back and made himself a cup of coffee. Of course the Winnebago went off the road and was wrecked. The man found a layer who saw a clear case and drag the Winnebago dealer to court. Cruise control should mean cruise control. He got a new Winnebago.

This could not happen in Europe. :D

br
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:50 pm 
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Maurizio, just another point. Hobie has completed that certificate wrongly, as it has described the vessel as "open decked" whereas it is "fully decked" (ie the hull is sealed).

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:54 pm 
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Maurizio

Now i am not, in any way, affiliated with Hobie. I just have brought a couple of their products.

I am afraid i have to take issue with your statement

Quote:
but this document is mandatory to have the purchaser (EUROPE) and follow the island even when it is resold to other users, but hobie dealers seem to want to hide the category in which it was placed the hull.


Nobody is hiding anything. Hobie certify the Ti cat D and if you knew you required a category C when you were looking for one you would have certainly found the information and presumably brought something else. As to why you did not get the paperwork in your pack with the boat and why you didn't get a sticker on your boat Ask your dealer.

I very much doubt that there is any law preventing you sailing your Ti around Italy within the 6 mile zone. Although I am quite prepared to be proved wrong when you tell us.

The long and short of it is that if you brought a cat D and have only just found out you needed a cat C boat, don't blame it on Hobie. Thats like me buying a car, finding it doesn't fit in my garage and blaming it on .....Ferrari.


cc

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:49 am 
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Chopcat wrote:
I very much doubt that there is any law preventing you sailing your Ti around Italy within the 6 mile zone.


Just curious, What about the "6 mile zone"?
Where did that come from?
Law / regulation in UK?

br thomas


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:06 am 
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Kal-P-Dal wrote:
Chopcat wrote:
I very much doubt that there is any law preventing you sailing your Ti around Italy within the 6 mile zone.


Just curious, What about the "6 mile zone"?
Where did that come from?
Law / regulation in UK?

br thomas

In Italy, basically any boat not CE marked is allowed to sail within 6 miles from the coast except the beach boats, like kayaks, that are allowed within 1 miles. Some not CE marked boats could be allowed to sail within 12 miles, but they must have additional requirements and documentation that certifies it on board.

For CE marked boat there is no limitation as distance from the coast and the limits are reported to the design category.

I suppose there are similar rules in other european countries.

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