Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:56 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 4:11 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 7:30 am
Posts: 10
KayakingBob wrote:
Pic's are showing. Can you add a pic from the side but with the hatch off?

As requested sir...


Bow to the left of picture:
Image

Bow to the right of picture:
Image

Lid:
Image

Lid side profiles:
Image


Image



And one more just so all the pics aren't so boring :D
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 4:25 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2229
Location: Maui, Hawaii
I'd wait for other peoples comments, but the hatch area doesn't look too bad to me. The only thing that seems to standout is the center rear of the hull rim seems too high, but I'd need to compare to one of mine. The sides seem mostly strait, which is where I'd expect the problem to be, going by the first pic's posted with the cover on.

_________________
Image
http://KayakingBob.com - - - - - Hobie Island Sailing since 2006 - - - - - 2011 & 2012 Hobie AIs and a 2012 TI


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:19 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 7:30 am
Posts: 10
That would make sense. If the top and bottom of the front hatch opening were high, it wouldn't seal well in the middle. I'm not sure that is the only problem, but one of them. I'm interested to see what others say about the bow and stern. If they are supposed to be level with the rest of the boat, there is definitely a problem there as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:55 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1277
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Yes I think there is supposed to be a slight upturn on the bow and stern, I don't have an AI so I'm not sure how much it's supposed to be. Hopefully someone with an AI will feed back to us. I don't see anything in the pic indicating any major problem that just letting the hull sit a few days up right on the ground won't fix. Actually if you just let the boat sit a few days on whatever storage solution you end up with, that will be your starting point on this fix ( basically you want the hull in its normal shape before starting your hatch fix, normal meaning whatever shape it settles into when stored, the actual shape is not important, as long as it's consistant.)
Once settled in, whatever the hatch opening shape look like, it is what it is (bowed side walls and all (don't try to fix the bowed side walls, we will just work around them).
I think the inner seal on the hatch is the important one, to check that you can mix a little food coloring with cooking oil and paint the inside of the lid, then put the hatch on and strap it down ( don't push it down, leave the outer seal alone for now that we will fix last.)
If the inner seal is sealing all around you will see the impression of the seal in the colored cooking oil, if there are gaps that's where we have to add the silicone (under the seal) to even the seal out.
Once the inner seal is corrected and the silicone is dry (might take a few days) then you start on the outer seal. On the outer seal you can visually see the gaps and verify with either cooking oil or your paper shims. You just add silicone under the seal in the gap areas to bring the seal up so it seals all the way around evenly. The actual shape of the hull is unimportant at this point since you are just shaping the seal to conform with the shape you have to work with. This is why it's important not to start the fix until after you have the hull shaped into its normal stored shape (the actual shape is unimportant as long as it's consistant (within reason of course). Think of these boats as soft clay models, if you always store the boat on its side the side will become flat, if you store it on two saw horses it will bend over time, the trick is to store in consistently in the shape you want the boat to remain, then start your seal fixes.
Such is life living with polyethylene boats, I wish Hobie would try the new plastic we are developing, all these problems would disappear. It's called thrive and is much more scratch resistant, way stronger and lighter, and is environmentally friendly and sustainable (made from wood by products (cellulose based))
http://weyerhaeuser.com/pdfs/businesses ... ochure.pdf
Hope this helps
Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 2:12 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:53 am
Posts: 192
Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
@Blacktalon82

To begin, read this:
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=44782
You have the same problem. EXACTLY!

Next you read this (you already got this link from Chekika):
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=50166

And some comments of post on the subject:

tonystott:
"...you have a severe misalignment problem in the front hatch area. There is no way that an AI should accumulate 2-3 inches deep water inside the hull after two hours. That is a frightening leak!

Just had a thought... the position of the leaks suggest that just maybe the hull has been bent... How do you store it? If the hull is suspended by the ends, the hull will distort. Fortunately, leaving the hull lying on the lawn out in the sun might see the "banana" straighten. I would try this as well as anything else you try, as it can't hurt."

Yes you have a severe misalignment problem!
No it does NOT come from storage!
It comes from wrong cutting of hull and/or hatch cover.


Blacktalon82:
"My concern was that the larger seal caused the front hatch to ride about 1in higher than stock and would drag in the water as the bow submerged in choppy waves. This would cause a constant spray off the hatch I would assume. Not that the bow is usually submerged, just that it does occasionally in waves and on downwind runs."


Correct! The larger seal will cause the front hatch to ride higher.
But it will NOT drag in water "as the bow submerged in choppy waves".
No this will NOT "cause a constant spray off the hatch".


fusioneng:
"I don't see anything in the pic indicating any major problem that just letting the hull sit a few days up right on the ground won't fix."


Again: No, this is NOT a storage problem.
It comes from wrong cutting of hull and/or hatch cover.
You can NOT fix the problem by bending the hull in any direction.
Because it is a misalignment problem betveen hull and hatch cover.


fusioneng:
"I think the inner seal on the hatch is the important one..."


I think otherwise because I think that depends of what solution you choose to fix the problem. In my fix the inner seal is not water proof. It have another function (see my links). The Hobie original idea with two (2!) seals demands a very accurate cut of both hull and hatch cover. Otherwise they will not both seal (water tight) at the same time. The normal production process of theese kayaks can't meet with that demand (in my opinion). So it is better to aim for one seal that is water proof and let the other seal have an other function (if it is necessary at all).

Well, both fusioneng and tonystott are more experienced Island owners/users than me so why am I so sure?
Because I had EXACTLY the same problem! And Hobie know the problem. But probably NOT their dealers.

I don't say that my solution is the right one, there are several of good ideas and solutions, so you can choose any that you belive is right. But first you have to be sure and accurate when you determine the real problem.
You can't fix the problem if you don't know what it is...

BTW, in my solution, I don't have any seal at all, mounted on the hatch cover. (see my links)

Good luck! (the problem CAN be fixed!)

best regards
thomas


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 2:48 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 1977
Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
BT,
Re the amount of upturn- I've just measured my AI and have a distance of 30mm from the bow hull to the ground at the point directly under the aft bow padeye screw. From your pic you do have a lot more upturn.
As an aside (and another possible solution??) my wife has made a nylon lid for our TI which stretches over the hatch and sits under the plastic cover, more like conventional kayak hatches. We are testing it this week.
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:34 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1864
Location: South Florida
I agree w/ Stringy (& Kal-P-Dal) that your hull is NOT deformed. I would not let it sit in the sun, or it may truly get deformed. I also agree with everything that KPD said. It seems to me that you should try one or both of the solutions I suggested in my first post above. If water stops accumulating in your hull, you can decide which solution you want to use. Point is, first find out if a good seal stops the leak.

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:16 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 1494
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Keith I think something got lost in the translation of Stringy's measurements. He measured 30mm, while Blacktalon's was 3 1/2 inches, which is a whopping 88mm or so, just about three times the "banana bend". The huge upturn at the rear also looks way more than "standard". So I still suspect the the previous owner stored the AI upside down on saw horses, and did not support the ends. The hull has therefore drooped a bit (looking at it upside down).

The best advice given regarding sorting this out was to first get the hull in its current storage position, so that any work done will not be undone if the hull shape moves slightly.

I do not see how K-P-D can be so dogmatic that the only possible cause could be what he experienced, and I disagree that anyone should give up on having both seals working efficiently, as I believe would be the case using the silicone solution.

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:12 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1864
Location: South Florida
Tony, I was hoping I would not have to go out and measure the rocker on one of my AIs, but I will do that tomorrow--both of them if necessary. I don't know what the tolerances of Hobie AI rocker is, only Hobie has that info. It is clear that AIs have some rocker.

My point is that BT82 ought to put in a known good seal, one of the 2 I suggested would be a good start (try both of them if necessary.) When he has determined that the leak can be stopped, play around with various seals (if he wishes) to get the one most satisfactory to him. I think KPD is coming from a place of considerable frustration with Hobie Sweden for not giving him any real assistance with his problem. Whose fault it was, I don't know, but he clearly thinks BT82 has the same problem--we all agree that BT82 is getting unusually large amounts of water in his boat from some source--the front hatch seal is always a likely candidate. To me it doesn't matter. Use a known good seal to show the leak can be stopped and then adjust its parameters to make the owner (BT82) happy. Personally, I don't have any confidence in the Hobie front hatch seals--some work, some don't. Some work for awhile, and then something changes, and they don't work. There was a time when I thought the Hobie front hatch did not leak--until mine started to leak, and I could not stop it with Hobie seals.

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 10:01 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 1494
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Keith, I hear you! My trip back from Broughton Island last year saw the lid of a large jar of instant coffee come loose inside the hull, and then mix with salt water coming in through my front hatch, to make a very brown but unpalatable "coffee" which permeated all items stored in the hull, even the shock cords inside tent poles!

I initially tried sticking a cut-out from a 10mm thick yoga mat inside the hatch lid, but I suspect the silicone build-up is the smartest way to go, as it seems the most scientific solution.

Still, wouldn't it be boring if these things were perfect! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 10:12 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:53 am
Posts: 192
Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
tonystott wrote:
I do not see how K-P-D can be so dogmatic that the only possible cause could be what he experienced, and I disagree that anyone should give up on having both seals working efficiently, as I believe would be the case using the silicone solution.


I have spent many hours messing with my front hatch and I am not guessing anymore about different causes. I know what problem is.
I am 100% convinced that the root cause is a missmatch between hull and hatch cover. I am also 100% sure that it happened when kayak was manufactured.

About "give up on having both seals working", it is just my opinion, based on lots of hours working with possible solutions, that it is easier to make 1 good working seal. You don't need two.

I did not mean to be dogmatic, just to point @Blacktalon82 in the right direction (about what the problem is).
Also wanted to emphase that the problem can be fixed. But I never said my solution was the right one or the only one.

br
thomas


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:39 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 7:30 am
Posts: 10
Thanks for all the replies. I am trying out the 10mm gym mat glued to the hatch cover, then the ROIDS seal method tomorrow to see if the seal can be fixed. There is clearly both a misalignment and probably a storage issue that I will need to work to correct. There is little I can do with the boat until I fix this problem, as I can not trust a boat that is constantly on the fast track to sinking. Since I need to get off the boat to bilge in most cases, I have to stay within a close proximity to shore to make my "every 2 hour" bailing run. I will have my camera with me tomorrow so I will try and snap some shots of the trials and tribulations of my front hatch! :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 12:22 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 1494
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
K-P-D, What I was trying to say was that while you have 100% certainty about the cause on YOUR hull, you cannot assume that everyone else who has a leaking hull suffers from exactly the same problem, as there are many different possibilities.

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 1:52 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:53 am
Posts: 192
Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
tonystott wrote:
...you cannot assume that everyone else who has a leaking hull suffers from exactly the same problem, as there are many different possibilities.

Sorry, I was not clear. From the pics and description I see that BT82 has exactly the same problem as I had. I was not talking about everyone elses kayaks.

But I supect that this type of fault is more common than known. For example if you press down the seal on the hull just gently and even it by place the hatch cover in place, it will probably be next to water proof. If glued it that position the seal will keep on doing a good work until the day it has to be replaced. Then the customer will press down the new seal until it reach bottom (as it should be done). Now the new seal is not water proof because of a built in missfit between hatch cover and hull.

Every time I read about water proof front hatch covers that started to leak when replacing the seal I suspect something else most be wrong. How many leaking front hatches there are that never will be found due to the usage (never going out in strong winds, never longer than an hour and so on), we will never know.

We do know that when we push the limits and use the Island in more wind an waves, with lots of gear and over several hours, we will find out if the front hatch is water tight (or not!).

br thomas


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 3:56 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1864
Location: South Florida
I've had 2 friends who sold their boats (1 AI, 1 tandem) because the front hatch leaked sufficiently to make them feel unsafe. It was before I came up with the ROIDS seal.

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Snakebite1969 and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group