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 Post subject: capsize recover
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:34 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 152
Location: Colorado
I have had an AI since 2010 and it does so well in high winds... that I also end up using it a fair amount in high winds. I have never capsized it but have had a couple of slightly uncomfortable moments. I also sail a 15 foot monohull dingy and have capsized it a bunch of times and if you have a mast tip float (I do), it’s fairly easy to uncleat the sails, climb up on the centerboard and right the dingy. Hardest part is climbing back into the dingy when it’s finally uprighted (at least at my age - 58 how).

I did a search here and didn’t find much about techniques to right either an AI or TI. One thread where a TI had to get rescued suggested that a float at the mast top would make things easier (not something I want to do if I don’t have to).

It seams to me that you could have two situations. One is that the boat flips and you are fast and try and upright before the mast sinks. The second is that the mast sinks and the boat is completely turtled.

If the boat was completely turtled, it seems like you could uncleat the sheet, collapse the upwind ama and possibly rotate the boat upright?

So what techniques work?

The pictures below are of this weekend. I was impressed with the TI either sailed single handed or with two. At times, we were in some fairly high winds and these were absolutely fun and the definatly the toy of choice for these conditions as I would not have taken anything else out on that day. But it got me wondering about capsize recovery.

Yep, I know I shouldnt sail in high winds.. but I sail a lot and sometimes its to go somewhere and if you sail enough, you are eventually going to get cought in high winds.


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:09 am
Posts: 115
Location: Sweden
It might be a good idea to put some extra floating bodies on both sides of the seat. They will most probably give you some extra time to stop the boat from turning all over. If you can't fastly climb up to the windward side of the boat it might be best to jump off the boat and swim under it or around it to the windward side. Where you easily can stop the boat from "turtling", and turn it back to its correct position.

Perhaps a solution where cushions are filled with gas in case they are pressed down into the water?

One big cushion could be enough, it seems to me.


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:49 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1899
Location: South Florida
Walt, where are you sailing in CO?

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:54 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
Posts: 152
Location: Colorado
In the last five days, I sailed four of them.

Friday at Blue Mesa res CO on some friends Seaward 25 - gust over 30 knots. white caps.
Saturday and Sunday at Elevenmile in South park Co with the AI (where the two pictures above were taken) Both days with white caps
Yesterday at Cherry Creek in Denver on my 15 foot dingy (a modified C15 with a rotating mast). Light winds.

FYI, I think June was windier than normal in this area. About two weeks ago I got just slammed over hard with the Dingy at the lake in Denver. The mast float made the recovery fairly easy.


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:17 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 1523
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
I LOVE those conditions! Sure it gets wet, but with the sail partly furled, the TI really "lifts up its skirts" and gets moving. My ideal conditions are sailing outside with a big swell (from previous days of high winds) with 20+ knot winds. Being totally selfish, in a perfect world, there will have been a slight lull for a few hours so the ocean surface has only slight chop (greedy? Moi? LOL)

Boatspeed in excess of six or seven knots (or more) raises the fun factor.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:22 pm 
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Location: South Florida
I like that volcano background in picture 2.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:52 am 
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Location: Colorado
Hmm.. no ideas about capsize recovery.. some day I will have to go tip the boat over and see how hard it is. I think you could even roll the sail up when it is under water if you were not in a panic mode - not so easy in the cold waters that we almost always have in CO. FYI, I was wearing a dry suit and the folks on the TI were also prepared for whatever conditions happened.

One other thing that is fun (and possibly a little on the dangerous side) is to go straight or nearly straight down wind in these conditions - surfing on the wind waves. I think I was hitting near 10 knots and the TI was doing a little faster. We did a lot of sailing that weekend and I had to peddal some to keep up which is actually good since I like to pedal and I think pedaling actually adds some control when your in high winds. A few more pictures of the weekend (Elevenmile CO)- which was wild.. but really great fun,

Image

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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:09 am
Posts: 115
Location: Sweden
Capsize recovery is certainly not easy if you're alone with a TI and there are high waves around you. Not if the boat has turtled. The amas might have released more or less and you might worry about losing stuff. The mast will be pointing towards the bottom and might be scratching it. If you have an anchor or two they might be hanging down and will catch the bottom if the lines are long enough.

Few here seem to be young and strong men. If you're fifty or sixty years old your energy will probably not last very long. So you better have something to make alarm with. You better have clothes that can keep you warm. You better not be drifting out on open sea.

You can sit on the bottom of the boat without much problem, so if you followed at least some of the the rules above you can stay calm.

If the wind is taking you in a good direction you can take up the mast and the anchors, or you will be drifting very slowly or not at all. If the wind is taking you in a bad direction it might be better to leave the stuff down in the water, as it will give you more time to get help or to help your self.

Taking up the mast and the anchors might be difficult. You will have to lay on your stomach and find the releasing mechanism for the mast. It will float, but you will get water in the mast, which will make the mast heavier. You can take it up and wind up the sail and lay it on the bottom of the boat.

If you have the necessary energy you can try to turn the boat around again. Try to fasten the amas to the main hull. Or it might be better to let them float for themselves when you try to right up the boat. You will have to use your body weight for a while to make the boat turn around. Don't expect the hull to turn around very swiftly.

This is not easy, unless you're strong and have a certain weight. So I strongly suggest that we develop techniques to avoid turtling the boat. One idea would be to have something similar to drifting anchors, which gets filled with water if the boat starts to turn upside down. They will get you time to get to the windward side of the boat, where you rather easily can get the boat back to its right position. The 'drifting anchors' might be in tubes on both sides of the boat, close to the amas.

Another quite interesting idea is to use pop-up-tents. They make splendid drifting anchors when they get filled up with water and they certainly get filled fastly when they release!

Possibly one pop-up-tent is enough, if it is fastened in the middle of the boat. It is probably possibly to make it release automatically if it gets into the water. Otherwise you have to be speedy drawing in some releasing line before the boat turtles.

If you have stopped the boat from turning around you will have to give the pop-up-tent more line, or you can't turn the boat back!

This is just my 25 cents. It is too late in the evening now, so I will not make the message better now. Perhaps tomorrow!


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:35 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Mt Kuring-Gai, NSW, Australia
My biggest concern in strong conditions are the aka bolt/nut failing and/or the rudder pin failing.

The former concern is of a sudden capsize and loss of items etc. The latter being stuck in the
middle of sea without propulsion to get to shore and replace the pin (I don't believe I could
do it in strong winds out at sea)

Do people (e.g. TonyScott) use a reinforced device in strong conditions, or just hope for the best ?


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 1523
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
oceanmoves wrote:
My biggest concern in strong conditions are the aka bolt/nut failing and/or the rudder pin failing.

The former concern is of a sudden capsize and loss of items etc. The latter being stuck in the
middle of an open sea without propulsion to get to shore and replace the pin (I don't believe I could do it in strong winds out at sea)

Do people (e.g. TonyStott) use a reinforced device in strong conditions, or just hope for the best ?


First of all, you should never be in danger of losing items, as EVERYTHINGS should be on a leash or safely stowed in a mesh pocket or inside a hatch...

There are plenty of ways of "hardening up" Islands to minimise the prospects of getting caught out in rough weather (once you are stuck out there in it). Most of these have been gleaned from this forum, some are my own idea...

1. Rudder pin breakage
Prevention.
a. Before msking a trip in open water, ensure your pin shows zero nicks or marks. If not, fit a brand new pin and keep the old one as a spare
b. ALWAYS heave really tight on the rudder down line so there is no doubt at all that the rudder is tight as it can go. Even a slight amount of slack can see the blade tilt back and increase the strain on the pin (and steering lines) massively.
Solution.
If there are more than one Island, you can simplify pin replacement greatly by bringing both together back to back (with amas folded forward on that side) or sliding the "good" one's bow in under the "broken" one's aka, so the rear sailor can reach the rudder on the front one. (Kayakingbob has a good illustration elsewhere in the forum). If I was on my own, and was unsuccessful in reaching safety using a partially furled sail and paddle for steering, I would (reluctantly) consider tying myself to the Island, and slipping into the water to change the pin from outside, but ONLY if I was comfortable with reboarding safely afterwards, AND hypothermia was not a possibility.

2. Aka brace pin breakage.
Prevention/solution
I have a line running from the mast base out to the padeye fitting near the ama handle on each side. When this is clipped on, the ama cannot swing in rapidly should the brace pin break. However, if you need to fold the ama in, you can still do so, by undoing the brace and sending the ama forwards.

3. Broken steering line (very low probability)
Prevention
Firstly, if you make sure your rudder down line is cleated tightly, you will reduce the chances of braking the steering lines.
Secondly, ensure that the steering line goes right round the securing screw, AND that you had added a flat washer under the head of the screw. It will be very unlikely that the steering line will slip if it is clamped tightly between the rudder and the washer.
Thirdly (and I admit this was probably an over-reaction on my part), you can add "arms" about 4-6 inches long sticking out from each side of the rudder, and rig external rudder lines forward to cleats near the seat. To simplify usage, I have added a length of bungee in the starboard side, so I can pre-tension this line depending on weather conditions, while I have added a pulley to give 2 to 1 leverage, to reduce the force required at the seat. This arrangement removes any reliance on the internal steering lines (but won't help if your rudder pin breaks). I now don't think the small odds of breaking n internal lines justify this mod, but I might as well leave it in place.

And last of all, if the excrement really has hit the rotating cooling device :D , you could always make up an external rudder. As I have a TI, the rear scupper holes are not covered by an aka crossbar, so my solution works for me. However, there are many alternatives for an AI, using the rod holders etc, to make up a frame to support a rudder (however, I believe it is easier to steer an AI with a broken rudder using a paddle, than it is on a TI)

Hopefully that should give you something to think about! :) :)

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1367
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
All good advise Tony, in my opinion the safety lines for the AMA's is number 1, you only rig them once, then just store the line and clips in your mesh pockets when storing your boat. Only take 3 seconds to click them on when setting up.
If you use the search function and look up double bungy for AMA's you will find lots of good suggestions on how to make double redundant bungy straps for your AMA's, actually the safety rope also helps keep your AMA's from rattling and falling off in rough water, but I would still double bungy the AMA's, if that one bungy breaks your in a heap of trouble.
I think the number one thing on a TI is the rudder pin breakage. Your really screwed if it breaks out in rough seas and wind. However once you are out on the water and you are sure your rudder pin is not partially broke when you went out, then the likely hood of your rudder pin breaking is very slim.
At the very least practice what you would do in that situation and be prepared for it. As an example I go off shore a lot and always carry an emergency outboard on my boat, if my rudder fails or something else major ( ie broken mast) then that steerable motor always gets me home, if I have to out run a lightning storm ( almost a daily thing in south Florida in the summer)
Hope this helps
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:18 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:35 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Mt Kuring-Gai, NSW, Australia
thanks Guys. could you point me to a photo of the ama brace line you use, in action ?


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:42 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1367
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
oceanmoves :
Here is a pic of my brace line, believe it or not this is a pic of my first TI way back in early 2010, I posted the idea on the forum. 4 yrs later I still had exactly the same rope and clips still on the TI's (just looked a lot older). The rope is tied to the AKA brace that holds the AKA cross bar down to the hull, one on each side of the boat. When done sailing I just unclip the clip and store the loose line in the mesh pockets.
I use stretchy nylon rope ( I don't recommend high quality low stretch rope). If the AKA nylon sheer pin happens to break ( I have sheared several dozen of them off) what happens is the AMA begins to fold in but the rope stretches like a bungy and prevents the AMA from folding in completely, giving you time to stop and replace the sheared pin, otherwise if the pin shears while underway the AMA simply folds in and boat capsizes immediately. BTW if the bolt shears and the AMA folds, chances are 90% that the brace itself is completely gone as well and sitting in Davey Jones locker (that little nylon cable is pretty useless). At this point you are totally screwed with no means to hold the AMA out (BTW your spare nylon pin is usually stored on the brace you just lost to the bottom). I always carry extra rope on board so I can tie the AMA's out if needed.
Image

I hate to burst everyone's bubble but most of my shear pin breaks have occurred while underway out in open water, with the result always being the same ( the AMA folds and you capsize for sure if you don't have the brace ropes ( I think it's call floundering LOL)). It's simple math, if your barreling along at over 12 mph and a funny gust comes along and buries the AMA, the resistance of the water pushing back on the AMA is more than the shear bolt can take and the AMA folds, and you capsize. I have also sheared several just passing through boat wakes and waves. If it was just one or two times I would just put it down to experience and wouldn't mention it, but were talking dozens of shear pins here.
Like Tony says if you want to fold the AMA you can either fold it forward, or just reach out unclip the clip, then the AMA folds back like normal.
Of course if you have Tramps or HAKA's this can help some, but for my own piece of mind I prefer the ropes. I have also had my AKA bars come out of their sockets a few times now (they just snap in), we actually lost my wife's sister that way overboard, she was riding on the tramp minding her own business, all of a sudden the front AKA bar popped out, down she went into 60 degree water, she still doesn't trust me 4 yrs later (I still remember the lost puppy look on here face as she went into the water, of course the wife made me go back and pick her up ( LOL). The same rope prevents the AKA bars from coming out (even if not clipped in tight). Also because the nylon stretchy rope has a little tension on it (like a bungy), it also prevents the AMA's from bouncing around and separating from the joints that are held on by those little bungy's (another one of those 'you have to be kidding me' designs, but that's another thread).
Hope this helps
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:47 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:53 am
Posts: 206
Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
Thanks for "shearing"! :lol:

I read an interesting article about these aka shear bolts.

I thought I could give you a link but, to my surprise, Yakass site with all the articles has gone away in cyber space.
If anyone have a link to them I will apriciate that. One of the best sites with very much of the best materiel you can read about AI handling, equipment, safety, mods and ALL! Can't find it!

But the essens about aka shearing bolts was that they put you in more trouble than they helped you out of. Yakass recomended to replace the plastic ones with stainless. So I did.

About turtling my AI upside down, I am prepared for that I will NOT be able to righten it up in conditions when it will happen. I am counting on that for a fact and will act accordingly.

br thomas


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:43 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 1523
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Yes, Josh Holmes has pulled the plug on his website(s). However, his advice regarding fitting a stainless steel brace bolt included a couple of riders... use of such bolts could affect warranty claims, and such bolts are not ideal if you are likely to run into jetties etc eith an ama.

I therefore believe that Bob's suggestion of a "safety line" to the ama eyebolt offers a more gentle solution, which doesn't concentrate forces to one single area, where the brace attaches to the haka.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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