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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:25 am 
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Location: Colorado
Don’t capsize.. I think this will be the primary action I will take here... I looked into this partly because I often take the AI out by myself and will just do what I’ve always been doing - when it gets real windy, use less sail, pedal more. Still plenty fast and I think the pedaling adds some control.

I forgot to mention that with the float and the ama collapsed, the AI was easy to upright by standing on the collapsed ama and pulling the boat over.

I also can see that if you do pitch pole an AI, its going to turtle quickly. From this thread, it sounds like your best option would be to collapse one ama, make sure the sail is tied to the boat and disconnect it (seems that if you remained calm, you could do this without a mask even with the boat turtled). With one ama collapsed and the mast disconnected, I think you probably could right the boat, get the ama back out and at least get the mast back on the boat so that you could pedal to shore. You may need to collapse both ama's to upright it and having some sort of rope that you can pull the upwind ama might help to leverage your weight.

And... I have had the AI for now a bunch of years and have taken it out in some wild conditions and really haven’t come that close to flipping it anyhow. I’m probably worrying about it too much now..

After I did the capsize test, had a nice sail, here a couple pictures..

This one is of an island on the lake where a lot of birds are born every year. The young Seagulls seem like "teenagers" now.

Image

We are heading into monsoon season and when you see storms like this, time to get back to shore in a hurry.. these pop up fast..

Image


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:07 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
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Location: South Florida
Excellent pictures, Walt.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:51 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
We have to consider the conditions at the time (if you Huli due to high gusts, they are likely to still be a danger) but leaving the sail open and allowing it to fill with air is the preferred method for righting cats. Many of these boats could not be righted solo without the lift provided by setting the boat on a close reach and letting the wind get under the mainsail.

Using righting lines will make things go a lot faster as well.

I might try to furl the sail in a turtle, but would never disconnect the mast unless conditions were calm and it was stuck in the mud. Trying to recover and raise a large sail in a big blow is nowhere near as easy as it might sound.

Nice picts, Walt.


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
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Location: South Florida
If you use righting lines to bring your boat back up, be sure to have a few knots at the end of each line because the wind may be sufficient to blow the boat away from you--the righting lines just slip through your hands unless you have a knot or two at the end.

Best rule: "Don't Capsize."

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
In a similar vein, I have a 20 foot lifeline permanently attached to the crossbar behind my seat (kept compact and tidy be a couple of rubber bands). On the other end is a carabiner to attach to my PFD or wader belt. However, just in case the carabiner comes undone (or whatever), I also have a loop in the lifeline about three feet from the carabiner, so I have a strong hand hold if things turn to custard.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:37 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 pm
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Location: Colorado
Capsize story on my 15 foot dingy (a modified C15). During the summer, I get about equal time on this dingy and the AI.

I have a real issue with having to modify things.. however the AI is about the only sailing craft I have owned that I really havent felt a need to modify.. (mostly..).

But.. on my 15 foot dingy.. I have really modified this boat a lot. This type of boat is not self righting (no deep ballast) and will capsize a LOT easier than either a cat or a small tri like the AI. However, it is much easier to recover from a capsize which is one of the things I like about it. You will get advice that you can learn to not capsize (which is mostly good advice) but if you sail enough, you are eventually going over and on this dingy, my history is that I capsize it about twice per season. I have been documenting all the changes I have made on it - http://analogengineering.com/sail/c15/float.html

I made the new float in the above link just this spring and got to test it out about a month ago. I was sailing on a Denver Colorado lake and the wind came up so I reefed the jib but had left up the main. Then, the wind came up a HUGE amont real fast and I got slammed over hard, dumped into the lake. I dont know the wind strenght.. but it was real strong - big white caps. When I first got capsized, I was in the water and looked at the float (custom float - not the Hobie Bob) - I could not see it but it must have been just underwater as the mast was still floating and kept water from entering the hull. I released the main sheet and had to get to the windward side of the boat to get up on the centerboard but if I had let go of the boat at all, it would have blown away from me real fast. So I held on to the main sheet and worked my way to the side of the boat with the centerboard sticking out. I had to release the sheet rope for a split second to grab the centerboard and fortanetly this went OK and I put my weight on the centerboard the boat came upright. Once upright, it was still blowing like stink and it was about all I could do to get back up on the boat.

Once I got back on the boat, I checked things out and no water was in the inner hull (a very - very good thing) and I have a rotating mast on this boat that does well on just the main alone in higher winds so I kept on sailing - got in another very fun about four hours of sailing after the capsize.


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:34 pm 
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Location: Colorado
Follow up.. using the idea of a righting line from a couple posts above..

We didnt test this on the water (yet) but I wanted to see "about" how hard it would be to right a turtled AI with the ama's collapsed. I put a new pad eye (with aluminum backing plate inside the hull) with an attached rope that I can use for either tying up the boat at a dock (one ama collapsed) or in an emergeny, use to upright the turtled boat. The new rope is only attached on one side which I think will be just fine.

Image


We put the AI upside down on the grass with the amas collapsed forward just to see how hard it would be to pull it over.

With both amas collapsed forward, it was overall easy to pull the boat up. Water "might" make this a little easier and the mast woudl make it a little harder - but overall I thought this could work even in windy conditions.

Image

We also tried this with only one ama collapsed - considerably harder to pull the boat up but still might be possible. If I ever get the "pleasure" of needing this (which hasnt happen so far with a lot of wild sailing), I will collapse both ama's, leave the mast attached and use the rope.. The tricky part may be to keep the boat from going back over since the amas will be collapsed.

Image

Here is the other reason I wanted that extra line.. at one spot I launch, you have to leave the boat at a guest dock while you park the car..

Image


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:30 pm
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walt wrote:

We also tried this with only one ama collapsed - considerably harder to pull the boat up but still might be possible. If I ever get the "pleasure" of needing this (which hasnt happen so far with a lot of wild sailing), I will collapse both ama's, leave the mast attached and use the rope.. The tricky part may be to keep the boat from going back over since the amas will be collapsed.

Image



What if you run the rope through the handle in the ama?


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:41 pm
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Location: Aussie living in San Diego, CA
I know this sounds obvious and probably everyone has read and is aware of it, but as no-one has mentioned it I thought I would do so for any who have not yet read it. In the AI assembly manual Hobie has published "righting the boat" instructions with pictures. So I'm including them here for information

Image

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:08 am 
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Location: Aussie living in San Diego, CA
Just to round out those righting instructions - they are different in my TI manual so I am adding the Tandem Island instructions here for completeness:

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2744
Location: Kailua 96734
With no handles on the 2015's, turtling the boat is no longer an option... :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
All you guys crack me up.

New line 4 on the instruction sheet:

4. Climb on top of inverted boat, wave arms trying to get attention of other boaters, if cell phone handy, call someone to calm you down while waiting for help. To pass time check the Hobie forum to pass time while waiting.


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:40 am
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Location: Bellevue, Nebraska
You guys kill me.


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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:41 pm
Posts: 184
Location: Aussie living in San Diego, CA
:lol:
I watched the Hobie staff do a TI recovery during a Hobie event in Oct 2012. The winds came up quite a bit stronger than expected just as we left the safety of the harbor and suddenly everyone, which included quite a few newbies - me being one, were in exhilarating sailing conditions. It wasn't long before a TI flipped dumping its two newbie occupants into the briny and then turtled. In their case an Ama became detached somehow and floated away and instant flip !
The Hobie safety boat was there in very quick time and and a team member jumped into the water to recover the boat while 20 or so Island boats watched. The Hobie team member righted the boat as per the instructions, climbed aboard and furled the sail but before he could open out the one remaining ama to stabilize the kayak the weight of the furled mast combined with the sea conditions turtled the TI once again and he had to repeat the righting procedure. The righting happened quickly and really was a text book recovery however it emphasized to me that losing an ama is pretty bad news. In this case it had been scooped up by the rest of the fleet as had the occupants who were now safely aboard the Hobie safety boat. And to their credit they climbed back into their boat and did some more sailing!

I cannot imagine how that righting procedure could happen so easily if the handles are removed. I think I would be inclined to add on other brand kayak handles just for that reason.

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 Post subject: Re: capsize recover
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:24 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
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Location: Kailua 96734
Classic! "Nearly impossible" to capsize must mean a 1in20 chance... :lol:

2015 owners - if you can't find a handle, the furling line should do nicely.


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