Ama safety line advice 2015 AI

Yes, Bob, excellent technical analysis. Excellent discussion. I've read it twice, and I think I understand it all. I'm going to quote it on my "expedition" thread where I discuss my keep-out lines. And, Tom Kirkman's suggestion of simply replacing shear boats regularly sounds like an great idea.

@RandomJoe--You are dangerously close to adding a lot of complexity to your boat.


Tony, I thought you were going to say, "...it is difficult to imagine anybody using a steel pin."

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

I'm not adding anything. I have my safety lines simply run from the ama handles to the aka brace mounts. My amas get extended on the trailer, my hakas are put on, and they stay that way until I get off the water so no need to be able to retract them enroute. (Yet... )

Although I think I could probably sit on or lay across the haka and fairly easily unclip the line if I really needed to pull in an ama while on the water for some reason. Wouldn't be particularly fast but should be doable. (The haka being moved to the other side before folding in, of course.)

I just happened to notice the unused screw holes on the left side of the front aka brace and got the idea of running the lines through cleats mounted there. Thought I'd mention it as a (possibly infeasible) option for those who REALLY want to collapse their amas on the water...

Forgive me if this has already been covered/discussed...

I've noticed that most (all?) of the ama safely line designs
seem to be engineered to work to prevent the amas folding
in, towards the read of the boat. What if the shear-pin gives
way and the amas fold forwards (in rough, messy conditions)?

Is it a simple matter of adding the same sort of bracing (I quite
like Keith's design) on the rear of the amas?

Cheers,

Mike.

RandomJoe:
Actually thats not a bad idea, I have all those screw holes filled with 5 sets of cleats on my boat, with all my jibs and rigging I think its handy to have extra's. You could easily run a line from the center of the ama angled up and under the front cross brace then thru a cleat on the cross brace. If you want to fold the AMA in you just lift the rope out of the cleat and it lets the AMA fold back.
Like I said earlier It's not real important how you rig it to solve the potential problem (there are many ways), what I just have a problem with is people not recognizing that there is a potential problem that can bite you very badly (capsize) or trying to solve the problem by doing what I think is the wrong thing to do (replacing the nylon shear bolt with stainless steel), which in my opinion can lead to a major structural failure of the whole system possibly stranding you. All I ask is that everyone test what they are doing to make sure it does what they think it will do.
Bob

Mike, I have thought about that a bit. With my stretchy, keep-out lines, you could imagine after the initial stretch to the rear, the aka/amas might spring forward because of the Keeper bungee. I think you would have mentally recovered enough to grab your rear aka if it springs forward or your hakas might hold things in place at that point. Because I'm frequently on a camping trip, the less lines around, the better. Of course, if you hit an immovable object (a channel marker or submerged stump), the force will always be to the rear.

I am up at Cedar Key, FL, about 100 mi north of Tampa, FL, on the Gulf Coast. Yesterday, in light winds and w/o hakas, I released one of the aka braces and the aka/ama did nothing, just kept sailing along. In higher winds, it is going to collapse rearward because of the water pressure on aka/ama system.

I am somewhat amazed that I sailed my AIs (2007 & 2011) for about 8 yrs without breaking a shear pin. Here is one video where I am deliberately out in rough weather testing my spray skirts with my 2011 AI and shear pins that are about 3-4 yrs old.


@RandomJoe--go for it!

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Great vid, Keith...

Just goes to show: older is sometimes better (I'm referring to the boat, not YOU btw!)

Mike.

That's one thing about water force it increases exponentially as speed increases. What was designed to work fine up to about 10 mph is totally inadequate at 15-20 mph or taking a physical beating in rough chop and boat wakes in water the boat is not rated for. The CE "D" rating only certifies the boat for use in protected and inshore waters (not offshore). Probably 90 percent of the AI/TI owners will never be out in open water and rough conditions offshore and most will never see in excess of 10 mph speeds (the envelope the boat was designed for).
For those of us that do go offshore into rougher offshore conditions, and travel at speeds 15-20 mph in those conditions, we are operating beyond the design envelope of the craft and precautions need to be made to mitigate the potentially deadly consequences. The intent of the little rope thingy is only to decrease the risk of capsize if you do happen to break a shear bolt while underway in those conditions (you will continue to break shear bolts ( I break them on a regular basis). It's what happens after the bolt shears where the safety rope thingy makes a small difference (no swimming involved lol).

The design of the safety rope thing in my opinion should not interfere with the built in 'collision damage safety system' designed into the craft. So if you do happen to hit a dock or a bouy, you want the AMA's to fold in safely without doing any further damage to the structural integrity of the boat. If you plow into something, yes your AMA will likely fold in, and you may tip over, everybody laughs at you and you recover tipping the boat back up replace the shear pin, recover all the stuff you just dumped, and your back on your way. This is the way it's supposed to work, and is normally at very slow speeds, and typically if you feel in danger just stand up, because all these kind of things always happen right next to shore, in harbors, and usually in shallow protected water. Same with failed surf entries ( I have lots of those), just stand up and walk whats left of your boat the rest of the way to shore, replace the shear pin, and your off to do it again (carrying lots of shear pins). My opinion it's a great design since I typically sail in close quarters via the brail method, and am a graduate of the Hellen Keller school of sailing (just being funny).
My opinion is you don't want to defeat the built in safety systems. If you hit a channel marker pole, it's your own fault for not paying attention (yes I have hit a few of those too).
Of course anyone can rig a rope truss bracing system to hold the AMA's out with a strong line from the bow to the center of the AMA (or the AKA bars), and possibly another strong line to hold the AMA from folding forward. Many do this, and once in place the shear bolt brace system can either be left on not connected, or taken off completely (doesn't matter because your not using it). The boat will be reasonably strong, and many prefer this route, this has nothing to do with the springy rope thingy. If you regularly run your boat hard offshore at great speeds, this is likely the route to go (a rope truss system), I'm just sayin.
Bob

This is exactly what I'm planning to do (alluded to earlier in the thread) but to the rear aka elbow. I have the cleats (Harken 471) and fairleads (Harken 424). Just waiting for the cleat wedges (79531111) and screws (8031481) from Hobie.

If your tramps are installed and tight there should be no need for the backup lines. The tramps make the system rigid.

Thanks Jclad, that is good news! I just got my TI yesterday and can't wait to get it out on the water this weekend. Thanks to Hobie too for getting the boat to me!

Sam

Thank you for all the useful information.

For the 2021 version:

1. Is it still recommended to install safety lines? If so how.
2. Are there any other safety mods to consider? And
3. What is an easy way to install the coopers blue anchor? Design, rigging and deployment and keeping it all tidy.

Safety lines? Iff you sail in modered conditions there is no need for it
Iff you use tramps, they have about the same efffect as safetylines
(Tramps make the aka’s rigit so the ama’s can’t fold back)
Iff you hit something with the ama and the bold breaks, it made sure you won’t have more damage than one plastic bold
Anchor? Sorry don’t know, don’t use one
How to install safety line? From the front of the boat to the rear of the ama but i never used them and since 2015 and sailing a lot off times (about 75times ayear for more than 3 hours a time) and I broke only 2 off those nylon bolds upp till now and just replased them on the water and sailed on
Sorry for the spelling, english is not my first language(not my second either)

Reply number 2:
Safety line recommended:
Line between miragedrive and the boat, iff you want to take the miragedrive out before the shore, you can’t drop it in the water and have to dive for it

Second this one. And if you have a centerboard that comes out tie a string on that too. Paddle leash is not a bad idea. I only flipped once, AKA came out and I went over in a second. Spent too much time swimming after the paddle until I tied it up with the mainsheet

To the best of my knowledge, Hobie has never addressed the issue of the ama suddenly collapsing if the aka shear bolt breaks. So, if you sail in any kind of conditions where the collapse of the ama could cause a sudden capsize, then you need to take steps to mitigate this vital safety issue. This forum has detailed multiple solutions over the years. The most common solution is to install safety lines that prevent the ama from collapsing. This is easy to do and costs little, but the lines must be properly installed and rigged. Follow the detailed instructions in this forum for the rigging you prefer. A quick search will turn up multiple threads covering this in much greater detail than I can provide here.

Another solution is to use the Hobie trampolines. These will also effectively prevent the ama from collapsing. The downside is that tramps are expensive and you must rig them each time you sail which, as with the safety lines, is a bit of a bother.

The next solution is to replace the plastic shear bolts with solid stainless steel bolts. This eliminates the problem and there is no rigging necessary. However, if you hit anything hard enough you may damage the ama/aka structure. I've been using stainless steel bolts for many years now with no issues. I've never hit anything hard enough to cause damage even with the solid bolts. I accept the risk to the ama/aka structure and feel that I'd much rather risk damage to the boat than the potential loss of my life or my passengers. I personally think that Hobie very wrongly prioritized reducing boat damage over the risk of potential accident or death. Operator and passenger safety should always be the primary concern. I've rarely seen any vehicle manufacturer make such a controversial decision. If you were driving your car at high speeds and you hit a pothole, would you want the steering system to suddenly collapse and completely fail just to avoid damage to it, or would you prefer to be able to keep on steering even if it meant some repairable damage to the car?

So, it's up to you which method you prefer. However, you should decide on one because the danger is real and people have capsized due to this.


On some older TIs, the akas used to suddenly detach from the boat. TI owners used to mitigate the problem with support lines to prevent detachment. Like the aka shear bolt issue, detachment could cause a sudden capsize. Unlike the shear bolt issue, Hobie did address this by offering a 79520604 AKA LOCK KIT HINGED HOOK upgrade kit. I installed this kit on my 2015 and have never had another issue with the aka detaching. I assume the new mechanism comes standard on new TIs. However many of us, including myself, still use safety lines to prevent aka detachment. It's hard to regain trust once a critical system fails in normal use.




See this post for the best Cooper anchor setup. To keep it tidy, I simply use an anchor bag.

Whenever you have such questions, try using the forum's search facility. This forum has been around for over a decade and contains the solutions to most AI/TI questions.