2015 AI Steering issue

Good points, KB. I would prefer "bigger sail, bigger mast, same rudder" and the rudder still controls the boat--not the wind. While it took Hobie a long time to admit the Twist-n-Stow rudder wouldn't work for the Islands, I hope they recognize quickly that the pre-2015 rudder may not be right for the 2015 AI.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

I thought the original poster mostly was saying that he had to pull harder on the downhaul to get the steering near normal



From the second poster.. actually sounds more like current. Was there any chance of current?

Its seems to me pretty easy to notice if your crabbing because of real bad weather helm just by watching the water go by. If the rudder isnt working, the water goes by at a different angle than your boat is heading.. easy to notice??

( "wouldnt work" .. good thing I didnt know that the whole time I was having so much fun with it..)

Severe weather helm to me would mean you need a constant angle on the rudder to keep the boat from wanting to head into the wind. If it were bad enough, sometimes the rudder would stall and the boat would round up. Ive experienced this on my sailboat when sailing on just the main only in high winds as this moves the sail center of effort way back compared to sailing with a main and a jib. Never had it happen with my old twist and stow AI or the new TI?? Maybe I reef too early.

Curious.. is the rudder the same on the 2015 AI and the 2015 TI?

Walt, I’m amazed you say your Twist-n-Stow rudder worked fine for you—no problem with wind overpowering the rudder. If you want to see one of my experiences, go to http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=165

On that page, go down to “The Storm: AI/TI in 40 knot winds, shark encounter, tethered under a capsized boat.” In that post, I show my track on Google Earth as I sailed my 2007 AI before a wind in the mid-20s (mph) with higher gusts. It is very easy to see when the wind overpowers my T-n-S rudder and the track takes a hard turn to the left—it happened a minimum of 6 times (see arrows pointing out the “strong gusts” and subsequent uncontrollable turn to port each time) in a stretch of 3 miles along shore. Frankly, I hated that Twist-n-Stow rudder--completely inadequate. I loved the vertical rudder, but I have doubts about the original being appropriate for the new AI 2 (2015 AI). As one of the "first adopters" of the AI 2, I may have to put up with some problems initially. I guess I could say my capsize was one of those "problems."

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

To put it in persective.. I don’t know what other types of sailboats you have experience with but my own experience has been with a H14, H16, Catalina Capri 16, Coronado 15 and a old Macgregor 26S (I still sail both the C15 and the 26S) and I spent years windsurfing.

If it is going to be high winds, the boat I prefer out of all of these is the AI and mine is a 2010 with the twist and stow rudder. I dont have nearly the eperience with the TI but it also seems very good in high winds. It handles those high winds better than everything else I have listed above. Of course you can finally get to winds speeds where even the AI has problems but there is going to be a lot more carnage with about any other type of boat - at least in my experience. And, when the AI has problem.. just reef the sail more.. I did a lot of my sailing on a high mountain lake that gets a lot of respect (or fear) for high winds, had a great time with the AI.

I’m not doubting your problem with severe weather helm.. hopefully some other who have sailed the new AI will also give their perspective. The reason I asked about the rudder on the AI being the same as on the TI is that I have sailed the TI and I believe it has a larger sail than the 2015 AI. These are not perfect sailing craft... If they didn’t have the mirage drive, honestly I would rather be on a more conventional sailboat which I think actually sail better in a lot of conditions. But.. add in the mirage drive and the AI and TI become very attractive.

I also almost always pedal both the AI and TI and think that did increase the high wind capability - at least on the AI.

During the FL 120 situation I described above, I never felt that the rudder wasn't responding. I always thought I was moving forward based on my wake and the flow of the water under the boat. That's what was so confusing. My GPS track was quite consistent and parallel to the shore. I think it was more a matter of trying to point too close to the wind and a reefed sail that produced a crabbing action. I'll gladly sit back and listen to the more experience sailors on this forum. I'll also pay closer attention the next time this happens. Heading out for the Texas 200 next week for more Hobie "training"!

Thanks for the tips and observations!

I gotta agree Walt. I sailed my old AI with the T&S rudder for years and learned to control the inherent weather helm by easing the mainsheet in and out. I found the trick was to steer with the sail as much as with the rudder. At least the old AI was predictable, even in heavy winds.
When I changed up to a 2011 hull, with the vertical rudder, I found that the weather helm had been replaced by a slight tendency to lee helm, which was fine in normal winds, but on one occasion, when I found myself caught in 30+ knot winds, I was completely unable to come across the wind, even while pedalling furiously. I was forced to jibe through 270 degrees to change tack. To make matters worse, the more I reefed the sail, the worse the lee helm became.
Weather helm is definitely the lesser evil in high winds IMO.

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I admit to never being into the subtle aspects of sailing. I’m almost always sailing because I want to get from point A to B on camping trips. Weather helm and an unresponsive rudder is a problem, not just a challenge.

BTW, the rudder for the AI 2 and Tandem seems to be the same, since only one rudder part is offered.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Keith:
I'm just speculating here, but I suspect the new AI-2 is a superior sailer over the TI (when ran solo), the sail on the new AI appears to be sized just about right (the TI sail is a smidge smallish, and mounted a bit too far forward). Actually I only ever ran my TI without a jib a couple times (over 5 yrs ago), but I do vagely remember it had pretty bad weather helm in higher winds close hauled, (the jib totally elininates that). The main reason I added the jib was because I had difficulty pointing into the wind any closer than 45 degrees and it was darn difficult to switch tacks without peddaling like a mad man. With the jib It's a piece of cake and I can point much closer to the wind (with a regular jib it's around 25 deg, with the wing it's around 10 deg). I'm suspecting with the larger sail area you will likely need to furl in sooner, than you did before. I remember on my TI having to furl the sail in a turn or two when the wind got over 12mph, otherwise I couldn't tack. With your larger sail I suspect you will have much better light wind performance over the TI or the old AI, but at the expense of more weather helm in higher winds so you will need to furl sooner than before. Now After hearing your reports I'm very curious about the AI-2, and look forward to sailing near one so I can see it perform. I'm thinking I could design a pretty dynamic sail system for it (better than I have currently on my TI).
Actually I'm very excited about the AI-2, and am thinking about getting one in addition to my TI ( of course it would be super heavily modified (because that's what I do (lol)).

I look forward to hearing more.
Bob

Bob, you better get an AI 2, otherwise you will just be getting incomplete reports. The AI 2 does tack beautifully, usually without pedaling.

So far, all the modifying I'm doing on mine is to prevent capsize and to recover in the event of a capsize.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Two more days sailing this weekend. Knowing that the lock down was critical, I set the downline as I would on an AI1, plus a whole lot more that I would ever use on an AI 1. Out in the bay in light chop, I had weather helm and " bouncing " of the steering handle in the chop. I sailed to shore hopped out and sure enough, significant play in the rudder. The only way to stop this, even in light to moderate conditions, is to pull the line SCARY tight - as in i'm afraid I am going to break something tight.

If the downline rigging is the same design/purchase etc for the AI2 as the AI1, I wonder if it is more sensitive to lockdown (lack of play) due to forces on the rudder that others are seeing as symptoms of heavy Wx overpowering.

Also, How long can I get away with SCARY tight before something gives

just my latest observations - thanks for all of the comments

This doesn't read too well - let me try again. How about this. It may be possible that design of this new boat with the existing rudder that may be causing overpowering in heavy weather may also amplify the effects of any play in a locked down rudder under any conditions including light to moderate.

Same rudder system at the Tandem which has more sail and is longer. The rudder is plenty large.

Jim insists that he has not had the problem and pinching, sheeting to hard and lack of forward speed are the issues. Same as any sailboat.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Thinking more about this:



Weather helm can be described by the boat rounding up when you release the rudder or by a heavy feel on the tiller, but turning the rudder in the opposite direction and still rounding up is more like cavitation or ventilation of the rudder blade. This can happen if the rudder is over powered, turned too hard or maybe moving up and down in chop. You might steer easily as the rudder is not fully submersed and then it re-enters the water flow at a hard angle... which causes a stall.

That can happen more easily when the rudder is balanced too well. It is harder to over steer when a rudder has weather helm. It is easy to over steer with a balanced rudder. These are differences in fractions of rudder rake. Further forward the more balanced... to causing lee helm. Further aft (slipping aft under sailing loads / speed) results in weather helm.

In choppy windy conditions care may be required to avoid over-steering (same as with cats). Release the rudder to allow it to regain water flow... then gently start steering again. You can do that in a quick motion that takes a fraction of a second to correct the over-steer condition.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Thanks, Matt, for all your suggestions. Clearly, my 2011 AI was for dummies, because, I didn't give any thought to sailing it and had no weather helm or lee helm, no rudder-control problems, no aka/brace shear pins or rudder pins breaking in open water, I buried amas w/o fear, etc.

I have not been able to get out much, but when I do, I'll give your suggestions some thought. On the other hand, I will not be going camping (loaded w/ 325# gear & me) until next fall, so I will not repeat or simulate that now. I had my steering problems in Chokoloskee Bay, where the chop was about 1-1.5'--relatively minor.

I do think that 3 of us commenting about steering issues of the AI 2 is significant.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon