More questions for the experts! :)

A few more questions I've come up with since the last batch...

1) Is it normal, when running full sail in 15+ MPH winds, for the mast to flex enough that the bottom of the furling drum will actually touch the plate beneath it on the leeward side? (Windward side of course has a larger gap.) With no load on the mast I have an even gap of about 1/8" or so (just looking at it while sailing, haven't measured precisely). Seems like that's a bit much flex for that low on the mast... Just noticed this yesterday, but it isn't something I would have been looking for before.


2) I'm wondering about all the reports/videos I see of people cruising at 10+ MPH. Really? Are these speeds actually measured or just "guesstimated"? I can get (according to two GPSes) to 7, just shy of 8, without issue. Above 7 and especially as I close in on 8 I start getting a TON of water spray that hits the akas and can feel significant braking effect from that. Also, on the days where it's windy enough to get me that kind of speed the waves are usually tall enough that I'm hitting them fairly frequently again with a noticeable braking effect. This is even when hiking out to keep level.

I tried sailing from the rear seat again yesterday, actually did pretty well this time but I didn't get any noticeable improvement in speed. I *did* have a LOT more noise as the bow would ride up one wave and 'slap' the next one, forgot about that from last time. Over and over and over again... Drove me CRAZY!

Further, I can't seem to get more than 8-8.5 MPH before I start losing the rudder. If I can maintain that speed for any length of time I usually find I have to turn the rudder full stop right or left and just hold it there, tweaking the mainsheet looser/tighter to "steer". Tighter it starts to round up, looser it *quickly* tries to turn the direction I have the rudder turned. Of course with the rudder turned like that it's generating a ton of turbulence which doesn't help.

(I don't *need* to go faster, I just *want* to! Trying to see what I can do...)


3) A curiosity question about the rudder. I'm sure there's a hydrodynamics explanation to this, what's going on when I'm clipping along at a good rate then the rudder seems almost to be in a bind - I have to push/pull HARD to get it to move, then it suddenly "breaks free" and I can turn it easily again. I'm certain it isn't a problem with the lines, it's something to do with the water flow over the rudder. Only happens when moving fast.


4) I also tried "sailing backward" to get out of irons, just for grins. Didn't have much success, I could get moving backward (VERY slowly) and could use the rudder to sort of turn off the wind but only very slightly. I wound up in what felt like an in-reverse version of heaving to. Any suggestions on technique for a TI?

We've only had our TI for 6 months, and are new to sailing, so are interesting in hearing what the experts have to say.....in the meantime.....

Using Google "My Tracks" on my Galaxy S5, we have no trouble getting up to 8+ mph in 15+ mph winds, but the fastest we've had is 9.87 mph (in 15 mph gusting to 25 mph). Sitting out on the tramp improved speed - I have a hiking stick, but have not felt experienced enough to try that yet.

Experienced similar rudder issues to yours just this past weekend, furling the sail a bit seemed to help.

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2012 Hobie Kona
2014 Hobie Tandem Island

1. Yes the mast can and will bend that far.

2. The TI will do 15 MPH (or more) under the right conditions. Keep in mind that more wind alone doesn't always equate to higher speeds. Good wind and flat water are the recipe for high speeds. Good wind and rough water isn't conducive to the highest possible speeds. Chop slows you down quite a bit. You may be doing all you can under your conditions, but the same effort on flatter water in the same winds might well net you several more MPH. More common top speeds in the AI and TI are about 12 to 14. And that's pretty darn fast for a sailing kayak trimaran. Many, if not most, small centerboard monohulls won't attain those speeds.

3. As more water moves over the rudder, you'll find it more difficult to turn. The instant you start to turn, however, your speed falls off and the rudder immediately becomes easier to turn.

4. Never any reason to go into irons on the TI if you have the mirage drive installed. As you come about, hit the pedals a few kicks and push the bow of the boat through the wind and back out on the other side. It'll quickly take off again.

I know, I just wanted to see how it works. Also considered it a possible need if I build my bench seat. When I put together my 10-minute wonder it was VERY difficult - even painful - to pedal from that seat. My eventual plans would be for a slightly different design that might make it easier, but I was also thinking about moving it farther aft - just behind the rear aka brace, which would become the front of the seat - which would mean I couldn't reach the pedals from it anyway.

(I really am starting to think I should have gotten a '14 TI! The new seat is nice and comfy but a royal pain to hike out from, between having to move forward first to clear those side cords holding the seat back and it being too flimsy to use as a handhold. When I'm sitting toward the back end of my hakas I seem to always have some part of the seat cutting into the side of my leg. With the curved back it also can't just fold down neatly out of the way, and if I take it out the crossbar it mounts to is still in the way! Ah well...)

Anymore I also tend to jibe instead of tacking, even when going upwind. I like being lazy, no work required! That eliminates any need to pedal and at least *feels* like I'm keeping my speed up more. Haven't bothered to measure to see if it helps/hurts the overall progress since I don't race and am not actually trying to get anywhere.

I'll have to be on the lookout for those elusive high-wind / flat-water conditions... I did have one very nice - if brief - period like that one sail. I think the wind was just ramping up, and I was close to the windward shore. Went flying along quite smoothly, but before long the chop came up. Not that I complain - when it's nearing 100 degrees I just LOVE getting drenched!

If you're not going to use the MD to help in tacking, then you'll have to carry a bit more momentum through the tacks. There will be an optimum turn rate but you'll have to experiment to get the feel for that depending on wind strength.

It also helps if you turn more than 90 degrees. Turn down a bit further and let the sails fill more fully in order to generate more low end power, then turn back up closer to the wind once your speed has built again.

It sounds very much to me like you're not cleating your rudder down tightly enough, or even at all. If you have rudder steering issues and are struggling to turn the tiller as you steer, chances are high it isn't being cleated down correctly.

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Kayak Fishing Specialist: SLH
https://slhobie.com.au

If I don't hit at least 12mph tomorrow I'll be very surprised

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Every day is an Adventure Island day

Ditto Yakkas,

When my rudder control is stiff to turn, I pull the rudder up and then down again to get a good tight pull on the down rope to seat it firmly.

Try using the Mirage drive while you are sailing. that is a trip in wind waves, you feel the boat coming up out of the water when the drives have no water resistance. I almost always have to pedal through the turns. Tom Kirkman has some great video of his sailing, he has one posted where a HOBIE 16 I think passes him by and they guy is whooping each time they fly by one another, that cracks me up. I weigh 280 pounds, sailing solo my preference is sitting in the back seat. Tried sitting in the front and just didn't like it as much.

I have the 2012 and I like having the handles, to hang on to when the boat gets going! I do furl the sail in very high winds and the boat seems to do better than with full sail, I don't submarine as often the boat trims better. I really like the feeling I get when the boat does that tug forward when it trims up into the wind!

I did some high wind sailing in a lake that had a full days worth of high wind and the wind waves were like the ocean. Not surprisingly, I was the only one on the lake that day. I got a chance to surf the waves. Furled the sail big time and that was the first time I took a wall of water to my body sitting in the back seat. Boat cut through a wave. It was pounding out there! YAKKAS has some video of his sailing in VERY CHALLENGING conditions. I don't know how he has the stamina to do it. I was able to find shelter out of the wind and take a rest before deliberately pushing back out into the windy/high wave conditions. I could only do a few runs, cause the conditions exhausted me.

Here here for winding and relatively flat water!

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/a8cmg/
https://www.youtube.com/user/mastery415/videos

Tom, I appreciate the info but I wasn't asking "how to tack"! I've not had any trouble there. I was just trying to get out of being stalled in irons by sail power alone. Just something to try that I hadn't done before. I thought I'd seen people mention doing that with an AI/TI here before, wondered if there's any special trick to making it work since I didn't have much luck with it last weekend.



No, it's cleated down - pretty hard too, enough so I fear damaging something if I pull harder. I've forgotten to cleat it before and know how that feels. I must not be describing this well. It isn't that it's difficult all around, in fact *normally* it's no problem at all to steer, quite easy. But every once in a while when I'm moving along fast it gets so the rudder won't move *at all* (or so little I can't tell) - not stiff, it feels almost frozen in position. A good hard shove pops* it out of that and then everything is back to normal, easily moving, without ever touching the up/down lines.

It never happens when turning, and it never happens at slower speeds. This only happens when I'm in the 7-8 MPH range, going in a straight line with very little steering input. One moment it's fine, I can make minute adjustments to maintain course, the next moment I can't. It never interferes with anything, aside from a very brief "wobble" in course when I think "oh, not again!" give a quick jerk to one side then back to center, then continue on as normal.

There's a roughness I feel in the steering handle at these times that isn't normally there which suggested to me it's something to do with water flow across the rudder. Maybe I'm wrong, I've never been in a position to go back and look at it while this happens.

* Further clarification? There isn't actually a "pop" either, it just takes a lot more force than usual to get it out of the position it's "frozen" in, after which it works just fine even after moving back to the same position.

I sail the TI from the rear and dont seem to have a lot of the problems mentioned but it seems that people who like it back there are a little lighter (Im still a little over 200). Maybe that is why I cant relate at all the slapping sound from waves saiing from the back seat? Or maybe I just tune it out.. dont know. I think one time you mentioned you were a little heavier and it seems the boat overall sails better from the front for heavier folks. Im not sure if this is true.. just seems that way from reading these forums.

My highest speeds are deep downwind in high winds and the TI from the back seat is the master here.. plus its a fairly dry ride especially with the spray skirt/guards at the front.

I cant help but to think of what an awsum single hand boat the TI would be if the back seat plus pedals could be slid forward a little for single hand.. but that would also add weight/complexity/cost.

Yep, I'm more than "a bit" heavier, unfortunately... Working on that too, but it's a long hard road - this time around. (Argh! I had my weight down once back in 2001-2002, it was EASY. As they say, "easy come easy go"...)

The nose definitely rises up more when I'm in back. I think it went better this weekend because I made a point of putting everything I had right up against the bulkhead right behind the sail - cooler full of water, anchor/chain, etc - which helped counter my weight. I haven't tried yet with some additional weight ahead of the mast inside the hatch.

But I prefer the front seat for other reasons too. For one, I like hiking out. And right now, as hot as it's been, the dousing from the spray off the akas is actually part of the enjoyment!



I've often thought that myself - in reverse of course. Since I'm sitting up front, "wish I could move the seat back a foot or two"! I can tell there is some improvement if I sit as far back on my hakas as I can (over the akas, but then I'm really cutting into my leg with the seat).

This is one reason I'm thinking about building my bench seat so it's right behind the rear aka brace. It would also nicely align with the back end of my hakas. Not sure what I'll do about the pedals though, I'll have to at least be able to use them for maneuvering as I leave/return to the boat ramp. Maybe a simple flat platform that lays right on top of the normal seat's mounting bar, that has the added advantage of keeping the bar covered so I don't snag things (like my foot!) on it when moving around.

That does sound rather odd. It almost sounds like the rudder is getting over-powered, but that's not been my experience in those wind speeds... not with the dynamic rudder anyway. I'd be keen to peer inside your hull to see if the rudder lines are all routed properly, and not getting caught up on the rod holder tubes or internal bouyancy foam... but I somehow doubt either of those to be at fault either (but have seen it before). I'd also want to know more about weight distribution in the boat, but again, doubt that to cause the issue you are describing

We are talking the 2015 model right? Have you checked to see if the lines are crossing over on the drum smoothly (internal component of steering handle stem)? Rudder left and right lines evenly taught?

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Kayak Fishing Specialist: SLH
https://slhobie.com.au

Yes, 2015.

I've spent quite a bit of time working on my rudder lines (I had to figure out the too-short limiter line problem first time out on the water) but I'm not sure what you mean by "drum".

My steering handles just have a flat bar at the bottom of the shaft. One line runs from the rudder to the bar on the bottom of the rear steering handle, the other line from the rudder to the bar on the front handle. A third line runs between the two handles. The limiter line also connects to the rear handle (three loops around the one stud there).

Weight distribution is pretty much everything centered. I'm in the front seat, and have my cooler of water right behind me sitting over the rear drive well plug. Behind that is my anchor bag (a blue Cooper anchor w/ 6 ft of chain), and behind that (sometimes clear back in the tankwell) is my "safety bag" but it doesn't weigh much. Don't have anything inside the hull.

I'll have to take a look at the foam, I've seen the end of it a time or two but never really registered where it's located. I know I made sure back at the time I was troubleshooting the rudder lines that it wasn't in the way but also know they can move around some.

That is interesting. So far all 2015 AI's I have inspected (including my own) does not have flat bar (like the old style) but instead uses what Hobie call a rudder steering drum (part# 84500502, as used in Pro Angler models), and I suspect this is partly - if not completely - responsible for what I have experienced as much smoother steering than previous models.

The question is whether or not Hobie reverted back to the old system for some reason, or the steering drum is in fact the current up-to-date system. I'm really not sure myself, as I've only ever seen them with the drum so far, and not yet seen any issues caused by it either. Could be they found a reason to go back to old system, or could be they updated the system since you bought your boat.

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Kayak Fishing Specialist: SLH
https://slhobie.com.au

I think I know and have experienced exactly what you are describing about the rudder feeling. I have a 2015AI.
On my second trip the rudder started to do exactly how you describe that it almost locks and then suddenly releases. Now this is just from my experience and your problem could be different.
When this strange feel of the rudder started it got much worse quite quickly and I decided to go back on shore to inspect the rudder as it clearly didnt feel as smooth than on my first trip.
I should mention that I failed to pull up the rudder on my first landing (End of first trip) on the slip and the rudder got a bit of a hit (was cleated, my bad).

So anyway as I was trying to get ashore the rudder pin snapped on the water, not due to extreme high stress from winds etc just because it was already prestressed from the above landing. After I replaced the pin it is as smooth as in the beginning

I think those pins can deform quite a bit before breaking completely, hence the friction for steering is increased and they are a bit of centre (not straight) hence causing the locking. Just my opinion and shot at trying to explain what happened

Also I used to load the AI on the roofrack by resting the whoe weight on the rudder gudgeon while lifting the front on the roof. Never liked it, and after a while I got this weird feeling from the rudder again. Replaced the pin (you could clearly see wearmarks/deformation on the old one) and it was fine again with the new one. Now I use a little triangle jig so the gudgeon doesnt touch the ground when loading.

So maybe just try how it feels with a completely new pin and see?

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2015 Adventure Island
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