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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:22 pm 
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walt wrote:
Pete, I know you used to windsurf and every year the windsurf industry would come out with something that the mags would say was so much better than last years gear. I participated in that for a long time myself but I think that constant changing had an influence on the sport being where it is now (Im sure its still done but I havent seen anyone windsurfing for years and I spend a lot of time on lakes).

I have seen the same thing: each year's new offerings are supposed to change the user's life.... I tended to stick with the same gear until it fell apart. When my Windsurfing Hawaii RAFs finally delaminated, I switched to Ezzy wave sails and stuck with the same suite of sails until I quit.

AI-wise, I would think there are two niches: fisherman and performance.

A guy where I sail has a 2015 Revo (lighter, higher k factor) and I bought my 2015 AI mistakenly expecting the hulls to be the same..... and was severely disappointed.

This guy can pedal rings around me - even when I have no amas rigged.... and his Revo is real-world paddle-able whereas I consider my AI to not be paddle-able..... and he picks it up and puts it on his car top just like *that*....

Yeah, I can sit there on my AI, stick the blade(s) in the water and pull over-and-over.... but it just doesn't much go anywhere.... OTOH, the Revo does.

As a non-fisherman I'd take his Revo hull shape over my AI's hands down..... Dunno what the cost/distribution complexities of offering two hull options are... and maybe they are prohibitive.... but I'd sure go for the "Performance" flavor...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:15 pm 
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The revo 16 is really the old AI hull with the new vantage seat. Yes, it is significantly lighter than the 2015 AI 2 because it does not have the X bars, mast step, and extra plastic to support that sailing structure. Hobie has said that the AI 2 would be more of a sailing boat than the old AI and part of that change is a significant increase in weight. I understand that the extra weight may be the price we pay to get a higher performance AI--suits me, because I was tired of the under-performing, pre-2015 AI.

Pete, it sounds like you should have bought a 2014 AI. If you want to do that they can be found at cut-rate prices. You should be able to get a good price for your AI 2, if you are interested in selling it.

PeteCress wrote:
Yeah, I can sit there on my AI, stick the blade(s) in the water and pull over-and-over.... but it just doesn't much go anywhere.... OTOH, the Revo does.

As a non-fisherman I'd take his Revo hull shape over my AI's hands down..... Dunno what the cost/distribution complexities of offering two hull options are... and maybe they are prohibitive.... but I'd sure go for the "Performance" flavor...

OTOH, I'm a bit confused on what performance you want: a better paddling boat, a better pedaling boat, or a better sailing boat?

Keith

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:51 pm 
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PeteCress wrote:
A guy where I sail has a 2015 Revo (lighter, higher k factor) and I bought my 2015 AI mistakenly expecting the hulls to be the same..... and was severely disappointed.

This guy can pedal rings around me - even when I have no amas rigged.... and his Revo is real-world paddle-able whereas I consider my AI to not be paddle-able..... and he picks it up and puts it on his car top just like *that*....

Yeah, I can sit there on my AI, stick the blade(s) in the water and pull over-and-over.... but it just doesn't much go anywhere.... OTOH, the Revo does.

As a non-fisherman I'd take his Revo hull shape over my AI's hands down..... Dunno what the cost/distribution complexities of offering two hull options are... and maybe they are prohibitive.... but I'd sure go for the "Performance" flavor...


If you want a pedal/paddle kayak, it sounds like you should have bought a Revo instead of an AI. But if you want to SAIL, the AI2 outperforms in every department, compared to the old AI. It is much faster, handles rough water so much better, performance upwind is better, there really is no comparison. The AI 2 was designed to be more of a sailing boat than the AI 1.
You say that you would prefer the old hull shape because of the performance. REALLY? The old AI was a pedal kayak with a sail stuck in it. In our club sails, the old AI's have no chance of keeping up with the new ones. Even if you put the old hull with the new sail and amas, I can safely say that the New AI would still outperform it in every way. With the new hull shape, it is built to SAIL.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:11 pm 
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Chekika wrote:
Pete, it sounds like you should have bought a 2014 AI. If you want to do that they can be found at cut-rate prices. You should be able to get a good price for your AI 2, if you are interested in selling it.
Keith

I agree with Keith. If you want true versatility in a craft that is a great kayak as well as a great sailing trimaran, then the superceded model can't be beat.
The diving bow, submerging ama issues and sitting in a puddle (which were the main design improvements of the new model) could all be solved by adding haka and hiking out.
As an owner of AI's since 2008, I am now AI-less, having recently sold my '11 hulled AI. I have no interest in replacing it with the new AI as my main usage is kayak mode. I have my TI for sailing performance. A few months back I bought a new superceded '14 Adventure hull. It is 8 kg lighter than my '11 AI hull and I've really noticed that difference in my usage.
I guess it all depends on your usage. You want a better sailing craft? Keep the AIv2. You want one craft that does everything well? Look for a '14 AI. Downunder I've seen brand new superceded models going for $AUD3800 or so, vs the +$6000 they want for an AIv2.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:15 pm 
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Chekika wrote:
OTOH, I'm a bit confused on what performance you want: a better paddling boat, a better pedaling boat, or a better sailing boat?

Higher K factor: better paddling, better pedaling.

In short, something that can be both a kayak and a sailboat.

I tend to agree with the 2014 assessment... but the deed is done and I plan to stick with what I have.

My little rants are just in the interest of raising the possibility of two main hulls: Fishing-optimized and performance-optimized. i.e. Complementing the current AI main hull with a Revo-like hull.

Not gonna happen, I know.... but at least I'm getting it off my chest.... -)

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:46 pm 
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PeteCress wrote:
My little rants are just in the interest of raising the possibility of two main hulls: Fishing-optimized and performance-optimized. i.e. Complementing the current AI main hull with a Revo-like hull.


The 2015 AI is the performance hull, it's built for sailing speed, it is not a fishing based hull. The 2014 hull is way to slow under sail.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:31 am 
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Hogman wrote:
The 2015 AI is the performance hull, it's built for sailing speed, it is not a fishing based hull. The 2014 hull is way too slow under sail.
My red emphasis. Strongly agree with Hogman! Frankly, I was beginning to look around for something better than the old AI--too old, too slow, too wet, too.... The Weta was most appealing but too heavy for the camping that I do. And the Weta capsizes occasionally. Fortunately, Hobie came out with the upgrade, the AI 2. I and many others fish from it also, but it may not be the best utilitarian "Adventure" type boat--the 2014 AI and earlier years is the all-around Adventure Island as Stringy says.

Finally, of course, Hobie is NOT going back to the AI hull for sailing--they had that for 7+ yrs. It is the Ford Model A of Islands. You can see the Model A in museums, if you want.

BTW, PC, I'm still trying to figure out what the "K-factor" is??? And how it may apply to an Island? The only "K" I know is K1 class sea kayaks, surf skis, etc.

Keith

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Last edited by Chekika on Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:51 am 
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Peter, while I appreciate that you are only putting things up for discussion, I hope you aren't talking yourself into being unhappy with your purchase. Perhaps you need to either buy an earlier AI, and/or pick up a super lightweight kevlar surf ski which will blow all rotomolded kayaks into the weeds.

The cheapest alternative is to instead seek out the positives of your AI2, and appreciate that you have bought an all-rounder offering a combination of capabilities unmatched by any other vessell (with the possible exception of the TI LOL).

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:33 am 
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Because of other posts recently, I occasionally look at my 2:24 min video about a camping trip which did not happen because of strong winds AND the sailing characteristics of the 2011 AI. Those of you who think you might like to have the old AI (pre-2015) should watch all of this video.



I loved my 2011 AI. I used it on lots of camping trips. It never gave me any trouble, never capsized even in the toughest conditions. Never broke a shear pin in open water--I don't remember ever breaking an aka brace shear pin. Unfortunately, as said above, it was too old, too slow, too wet, too....

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:32 am 
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Chekika wrote:
BTW, PC, I'm still trying to figure out what the "K-factor" is??? And how it may apply to an Island? The only "K" I know is K1 class sea kayaks, surf skis, etc.
To begin with, I don't mean to sound like I know much about this - because I don't.

Having said that....

My impression is that K factor is a number that indicates how easily a hull slides through the water.

We keep hearing that hull speed is a function of waterline length as in HullSpeed = 1.34*SquareRootOfWaterLineLength.

That computation seems to be accepted by most people for most hulls most of the time.... but when you get to really extreme hulls like an H-16's or a surf ski's, the number '1.34" no longer works.

To reduce it the the ridiculous, imagine a shipping container and a telephone pole - both the same length.

Which is easier to tow through the water ?....

1.34 is what I understand to be the K factor and the telephone pole has a higher K factor than the shipping container.

Maybe somebody who knows more about this stuff can chime in and either concur with or correct my assertions...

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]


Last edited by PeteCress on Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:59 am 
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tonystott wrote:
Peter, while I appreciate that you are only putting things up for discussion, I hope you aren't talking yourself into being unhappy with your purchase. Perhaps you need to either buy an earlier AI, and/or pick up a super lightweight kevlar surf ski which will blow all rotomolded kayaks into the weeds.
Actually, that's what I've been paddling for 10+ years - maybe not "Super" light... but carbon/fiber and quick enough for Yours Truly without being too tippy.

This is the one I've had for the past 5 years or so: http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=S1-R

Quote:
The cheapest alternative is to instead seek out the positives of your AI2, and appreciate that you have bought an all-rounder offering a combination of capabilities unmatched by any other vessel (with the possible exception of the TI LOL).
Believe-it-or-not, that's what I have been doing. Started out assigning sailing the AI a Fun Factor of 2-3 (windsurfing being 9-10 and paddling a surf ski downwind in a swell being 8-9).

I've already promoted the AI to 4-5... and hope to get it higher. The secret being, as you say, to focus on the capabilities of the AI.

In spite of my rants about "K Factor", I am finding that raw speed is really a non issue most of the time when under sail....... Paddling, yes, sailing no..... What counts is being able to match the speed of the swell and/or chop - and the Mirage Drive enables that if/when sail size is inadequate for the wind.

I guess the one place where raw speed under sail could be important would be tidal situations where the tide is running really fast and one has to fight it to get home.... but those situations can be avoided by planning and judgement.


One thing I focus on is the Mirage Drive...... Beats Hell out of sitting on my butt essentially doing nothing for 2-3 hours at a time.... and it gives impressive maneuverability options.... it also enables me to out-sail faster boats and better sailors by heading directly into the wind and peddling like crazy during the lulls.

There is also a strong "Go Anywhere" aspect to the AI...... Try hitting a crab trap at speed in a WETA and you will appreciate the AI's folding dag..... and I'll run the AI up on "beaches" (quotes because of the rocks and other stuff) that I wouldn't even *think* of pulling my fancy-schamcy surfski up on..... (OTOH, I can carry the ski.... ). Polyethelene may be heavy... but it sure is tough....

Another aspect is "Mods".... maybe "Enjoy" isn't quite the right word, but reading about what people do to enhance the AI's functionality for them and working out things that do the same for me has - and continues to - satisfy some sort of compulsion in me...... I am already on my second iteration of a trampoline...... and not *that* far away from attempting a 7-meter sail to be made out of some TyVec I have laying around.

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]


Last edited by PeteCress on Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:28 am 
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Hogman wrote:
The 2015 AI is the performance hull, it's built for sailing speed, it is not a fishing based hull. The 2014 hull is way to slow under sail.
I keep hearing that - and do not doubt it....

OTOH, I have to wonder how much of the speed diff comes from the 2014 having a over a half-meter less sail than the 2015..... may not sound like much on paper but, when windsurfing, .6 meters of sail can be the diff between planing and slogging.......

OTOOH, experience tells me that .6 meters of windsurfing sail negates 20 pounds of body weight - at least when it comes to ability to get up on a plane.... and the 2015 AI is substantially more than 20 pounds heavier ... so maybe the sail size diff is a wash - even so planing is not involved.

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:10 am 
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Most of the additional sail on the AI 2 is high on the mast. Here is an image showing my wife's 2009 AI sail laying on top of my 2015 AI 2 sail.

Image

In effect, my friend Josh Bowers pointed out, the AI is already "furled" compared to the AI 2. That is why my 2011 AI never exhibited weather helm, but my AI 2 does in winds of only 17-18 mph. The AI 2 has to be furled a wrap or 2 when winds reach 17 mph or so. Then, when the winds lighten up a bit, you unfurl the AI 2 sail to get more speed.

BTW, PC, when I google "K-factor," I get nothing about kayaks or kayak design or speed.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon


Last edited by Chekika on Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:28 am 
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Chekika wrote:
BTW, PC, when I google "K-factor," I get nothing about kayaks or kayak design or speed
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/displacement-hull-speed-calculation-10098.html

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:23 am 
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Pete. Just a small question. How much time have you spent sailing the old hull shape?
Have you personally sailed and compared the two in all conditions.
Just saying, that I don't know anyone that has sailed both (a lot), and thought........ I wish I still had the old one instead?
We have a lot of very experienced sailors in our club, and not one will ever go back to the old hull shape.

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