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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:32 pm 
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I wonder how many of you paddle (i mean real paddling not justa couple of strokes) on your Island. Actually I use the paddle only when i launch and when i land (i dont use tramps).
When i tried paddling the movement was disturbed by the presence of the akas and I soon resigned. I also think that paddling and peddling at the same time is almost impossible and peddling is more efficient than paddling, therefore probably there are not many paddlers out there with the aka on. But I could be wrong
I would like to paddle more for two main reasons:
1 - during a long trip with light wind and a lot of peddling it could be useful to rest our legs
2 - exercising also the muscles of the upper part of the body

i read somewhere that somebody used shorter paddles with less problems hitting the akas. any suggestion for paddling with the akas on?

The second part of my question will probably make u think I am a fool.
since with light or no wind we can peddle the mirage drive but the arms are "unemployed" is there any crazy fellow who build a propeller that is powered not by the legs but by the .... arms .... and can be used at the same time with the mirage drive? .. ok ok I know I made u laugh and I am happy for this ....


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:14 pm 
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In full Island mode, not a chance! I feel like I'm crawling like a snail while pedaling, hardly get anywhere when paddling! I've also found it just about impossible to actually steer the fully-rigged TI (mast up but furled) with a paddle if it's very windy. About all I do in that mode is use the paddle for the first few feet from the ramp until it's deep enough for the Mirage drive and I'm facing the right direction.

If I'm going in kayak or single-outrigger mode, sure. I'm usually running up a creek or somewhere shallow so occasionally the drive won't work so I paddle instead. Lose all the extra weight and wind resistance and a TI glides very nicely!

For Island or single-outrigger mode I'm using a single-blade paddle. Found it far too annoying to use a double-blade paddle, kept whacking the akas. I also like having my hakas along which limits horizontal space for the blades. With a single blade I paddle it like a canoe, keeping the blade vertical and close to the hull. Right now I'm just using the T-handle with one end of the Hobie paddle but have been looking at canoe paddles. They're longer than I thought they'd be, I'd like it to be a little shorter than the Hobie-with-T-handle as I do tend to snag the mainsheet with the T-handle. A bit shorter would work well. (Granted that's not an issue in single-outrigger mode.)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:03 pm 
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Why not use a collapsible paddle?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:33 am 
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my issue didnt concern windy situations cause in those moments i am very happy to sail.
i didnt thought at a single blade paddle as in a canoe. i wonder how is the efficience of this kind of paddling for quite long rides (not a few seconds or some minutes). is there anybody that used a lot a single blade (or collapsible) paddle and can report how it goes?

what about a shorter double blade paddle? maybe if it's shorter than the one provided by Hobie the collisions with the akas could not happen so frequently.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:50 am 
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Sardinian Islander wrote:
I wonder how many of you paddle....
I paddle quite a lot - but on a surf ski.

My take is that my AI-2 is not very amenable to paddling: it's just too slow and lacking in glide.

That being said...

  • I find it easier to paddle my AI with a single-bladed paddle than with a kayak paddle.
    .
  • If you are going to do much paddling, Google for proper technique..... Proper paddling is not done with the arms....Rather the power comes from torso rotation and the arms are just connecting links.... there are consequences to over-use of the arms that include elbow problems...... Read up on it.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:52 am 
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Thank you Pete. u are right i never thought about a single bladed paddle
but now a new question arise. is it possible to pedal and peddle with a single blade paddle at the same time?
ther eis a way to find the proper cycle or is it a matter of "barnum Circus" exercise?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:32 am 
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My father-in-law and I tried the paddle peddle combo last year. It didn't go so well. He was paddling in the rear seat (He's missing a leg due to cancer, so peddling was not an option for him) and I was peddling in the front seat. The problem we encountered was that I was generating enough speed that it was difficult for him to dip the paddle without it just getting pushed backwards. Kind of like trying to paddle while going with a 3+ knot current. Eventually he just gave up and enjoyed me doing all the work. Now, if your trying to do it yourself I can see it being like rubbing your belly and patting your head at the same time.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:42 am 
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On long pedaling trips you can always clip on cords to your peddles with handles (like ski rope handles). When your legs are exhausted (mine usually are), you can pull with your arms to assist. Takes much less coordination than trying to paddle at the same time.
The whole trick here is a steady even cadence, not trying to exhaust yourself. Settle for 3 mph vs 5-6 mph (kind of like a walking pace). You can easily peddle for 8-10 hrs. I typically give my legs a break once in a while, and just paddle (even though it's not efficient, just resting your legs 5 minutes, makes all the difference in the world.
Fe


Last edited by fusioneng on Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:14 am 
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Sardinian Islander wrote:
Thank you Pete. u are right i never thought about a single bladed paddle
but now a new question arise. is it possible to pedal and peddle with a single blade paddle at the same time?
ther eis a way to find the proper cycle or is it a matter of "barnum Circus" exercise?
I have tried it and it did not work for me.

Paddling my AI-2 is like trying to fool Mother Nature.... I always have my single-blade paddle within reach for when I blow a tack without the Mirage Drive installed or I find myself getting blown backwards towards the beach.... but other than that, it's the Mirage Drive and/or the sail.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:08 pm 
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Sometimes when I go out, my plans end up I want to paddle/peddle up rivers and such, but then later I'll want to go out in big water and sail some. This usually involves going under several low bridges around here.

Sure I could leave the AMA's and sail rigging back at the campsite, but then I have to go back and get it. What I prefer to do lately is peddle in kayak mode with the sails down and the AMA's folded in. I found out that the AMA's when folded against the hull create quite a bit if drag in the water. Just by dumb luck I discovered if I tie a rope between the AMA's and cinch it tight, there is enough slop in the AKA bar joints, that you can literally raise the AMA's completely out of the water while kayaking, there is much less drag on the boat.

One of the nicest features of the TI is in kayak mode the boat glides like no other boat, and is very fast and effortless, ( I suspect this is because of the length, and the length to width ratio of the hull is 8/1).
Of course with the sails on board and the AMA's we are carrying more weight, but the extra weight doesn't seem to effect speed enough for me to notice (besides wind resistance obviously).
Result is I have a great kayak that I'm happy with in kayak mode (NOTE: we have always been tandem kayak users (our preference) so we are used to the extra girth associated with tandems). At any time if I get to big water I can open the boat up fully rigged and go full sailing. Around here that feature is really nice.
Another thing I did with our boat is to widen the boat from 10 ft to 12 ft by extending the AKA bars (not as easy as it sounds). This way when peddling on calm flat water with the AMA's extended both AMA's are out of the water (reducing drag, obviously you still have the wind resistance, but typically when we are out doing that stuff there is zero wind anyway). Turns out the calculations for AMA flotation, and healing moment aren't just straight trig, it appears the healing resistance and distance from the centerline of the hull grows exponentially (who knew lol). Now it's pretty much impossible to capsize my TI, even with my big sails.

Another trick you can do is if you are in shallows and can't use your peddles (I suspect why you are paddling). You can 'shallow peddle' down to about 6-7 inches of water. If you set the mirage drive with one peddle set on 2 or 3, and the other set on 5 or 6, then just peddle shorter strokes (so the peddle stroke is an X pattern vs pedaling all the way thru). Once you get the hang of it you can shallow peddle for miles in really shallow water and be almost as efficient as full peddling. One hint is you likely have to also pull your rudder up when in shallow water (this is where the paddle in hand is needed for steering, when in that situation, we typically have our paddles in hands and paddle some as well).

Another big pointer is there is a bungy that attaches to one of the peddles to help hold the fins against the bottom. What we do is anytime we are near shallow water, we put the bungy onto one of the peddles, Note: You can still pedal the mirage drive just fine with the bungy on the pedal. This way the pedals always fold against the hull if you take your feet off the pedals. We often beach with the mirage drives in (but then again all our beaches are sugar white soft sand).

It's still my opinion that the most efficient propulsion is the mirage drive with a boat like the TI vs paddling, even if you have to shallow peddle, and/or use some of the tricks I have outlined above you can go further expending less energy in my opinion.
FE


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:04 am 
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what happens when u paddle with the folded amas? can u do that or the amas disturb the paddling?
i never tried it
as i never tried to paddle and pedal at the same time. i think that there are some movements of the arms that can be syncronized with the ones of the pedaling legs but this is not paddling

i know it's wrird. i didnt want to paddle thinking at swallow waters, legs pain or mirage drive damage. i just wanted to use the power of my arms and my legs at the same time :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:11 am 
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Sardinian Islander wrote:
what happens when u paddle with the folded amas?
I would say "U don't".... -)

I suppose you could use the full-length double-bladed paddle and grab the water way out there... but it sounds to me like a shoulder injury waiting to happen.

Mirage Drive can work extremely-shallow water - just limit your foot strokes..... quick and short does the job.

And if it's *that* shallow, I would think about stepping out of the boat and walking it along.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:14 am 
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Sardinian,

That must be a beautiful place to live, sail, pedal, & paddle. Got to look up some pics.

You asked:
I wonder how many of you paddle (i mean real paddling not justa couple of strokes) on your Island.
I would like to paddle more for two main reasons:
1 - during a long trip with light wind and a lot of peddling it could be useful to rest our legs
2 - exercising also the muscles of the upper part of the body.

I have often wondered exactly the same things. Some thoughts:

PADDLING EFFECIENCY/TECHNIQUE
I have never heard of any actual clinical physiological study that measures the amount of energy used or work done or caloric output comparing specific muscles such as torso vs. shoulders vs. arms while paddling. Nor any study that compares paddling to pedaling. Nor any study that compares any of the above between trained olympic athletes and casual recreational athletes. Nor any study that compares any of the above to different body builds, sizes, shapes, or genders.

What we have are forums, books, articles, classes, lectures, and sales staff all quoting each other. That is an understandable state of affairs and not such a bad thing. Much of the “info” is excellent and wise. I agree with most of it. But I think that it is all speculation, including my own opinions.

One item addressed by TI Tom is that proper paddling uses primarily torso rather than arms. I agree, but feel this technique is sometimes over stated. Arms are not wet noodles attaching torso to paddle. They must transmit all of the power to the paddle. And they must transmit it dynamically through the length of the stroke. It takes muscle and work to do that. And I suspect that in the process of transmitting power, they add power to the stroke — even in a highly trained paddler.

Even if the torso contributes, say 70% of the paddle power, leaving 30% for arms/shoulders, it’s possible that arms may be enough smaller or weaker than torso that they have to work harder than the torso to do what they have to do. And the harder the torso works, the harder the arms must work. Even with proper torso technique, arms may exhaust first or injure first.

The Lower body also does some work in transmitting power from paddle to hull. Gravity does much of that — more so in some of us than others. Foot and thigh braces in sit-in kayaks provide surface area for muscles to work on.

Kayakers much wiser than myself have said on several forums that there is no single best way to paddle because bodies and boats are all different. Further, each person over time will automatically find the way that is best and most efficient way for their particular body and boat— just as arctic hunters did centuries ago.

My conclusion: Yes, paddling is useful propulsion and will provide good exercise to the entire upper body, as well as some of the lower. However, in spite of my intentions when I bought my TI, I almost never paddle.

PEDALING
Only leg and some back muscles are used to provide power and transmit it to the paddles on the pedals. That is, the engine and drive train are one and the same. Further, power is transmitted from fins to hull directly through the pins holding the mirage drive — no human involved. Perhaps that is why pedaling feels so much easier than paddling. It is direct drive. No crankshaft, no drive shaft, no transmission. The whole upper body could be a wet noodle.

Or it could be, as several Hobie sales people told me, that pedaling is easier because legs are stronger than arms. I did not remind them of strong torsos, as I was confused myself. But I only needed 30 minutes in a TI to know that the paddle had been demoted in my life to a push pole for the dock.

But what about upper body exercise and giving the legs an occasional break on a calm day?

Well, yes I still do that some — but not often. When I paddle for more than 5 minutes or so my strokes start to resemble a bad piece of music: 4 notes with 2 rests, 4 notes with 2 rests, 4 notes with 2 rests — etc. After 30 minutes it’s more like 2 notes with 4 pants. On a good day I might do 10 minutes paddling with 1 minute resting.

My problem is Isaac Newton with his knowledge (which is not speculation), that a body at rest tends to stay at rest and a body in motion tends to stay in motion. Thus it takes a LOT more power to start up from a stop than it does to continue in motion. My body does not have stamina to stay in motion. So over the course of several hours I exhaust myself by starting up over and over. Pedaling solved this problem for me (I can handle a continuous pedal for hours — even solo on a TI, though I suspect I am a lot slower than most forum members.)

PEDALING & PADDLING ALTERNATELY
There is another consequence of Newton’s law. I understand that that driving into a brick wall at 40 mph causes 4 times as much damage as hitting it at 20 mph. Translated to kayak: Moving at 2 knots only takes a quarter of the energy it takes to move at 4 knots. If I have the time, my weak body will get the kayak a lot further the slower I go. I draw the following conclusions for my TI, and would love to be corrected by anyone who understands such things better than myself.

a) When traveling with 2 people, maximizing distance (at the expense of time, which is less important to me) and making the most efficient use of the very limited stamina of two older people, it is better to take turns powering the boat rather than working together. This way each gets a rest, and the boat goes further over the course of the day by staying in motion for more of the day, though at a lower speed.

b) If one of the two people prefers paddling — injury? disability? hates bicycling but loves kayaking? stronger upper body? — it is still more efficient to alternate the two people with their respective powering method. Each gets a rest and boat keeps moving, though at different speeds with each. And of course, time at the helm does not have to be divided equally.

c) When traveling alone, it is more efficient to go slower. This can be accomplished with smaller paddle blades and/or non-turbo fins on the mirage drive, as well as just paddling slower. I confess that I do use the turbo fins on the mirage drive because I like them in currents and wind (especially to come about quickly). Wish I could swap back and forth during a trip (change gears). For years I have used a much smaller paddle blade than most I see in use (probably less than half the surface area of a typical blade). Never noticed a problem, even soloing with a heavily loaded double kayak in strong winds.

d) All of the above principles apply if the word person is replaced with the words, “electric motor,” and the word stamina is replaced with the word “battery.”

PEDALING AND PADDLING SIMULTANEOUSLY
Tried it several times. Does not work for me - even without sail & amas. My problem is not legs or arms or torso or coordination. My problem is stamina. I have trouble finding stamina for either method alone. Put them together and I’m exhausted in no time at all — long before arms or legs get tired or sore.

Fusioneng, I love your idea of using a rope on the pedals. Can’t wait to try it. Where do you tie it?

Good Sailing,
Brian


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:46 am 
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Brian:
For a while I had a pulley gadget system where I could operate both sets of peddles from either the front or back seat (my wife doesn't like to peddle, and pretends a lot, with me in the front I yell back are you peddling, yes, I yell again are you peddling, yea again). I stop peddling and the boat stops (I'm on to her game, but don't really care, I enjoy the company).
Long story short, (too late). I have little loops of spectra rudder line wrapped around the pedals where they meet the uprights. I can just snap a clip on the spectra to either use my dual pedal setup or my little ski ropes if I want to help pedal with my arms (you kind of need them when trying to peddle both sets of peddles). I just keep the ski ropes in the rear mesh pocket, but seldom use them, when peddling both mirages I get exhausted in about a half mile and have to give it up. But peddling one mirage at around 40 to 50 cpm (walking pace), I can pedal 10-12 hrs with little breaks once in a while. You are correct the faster you try to peddle, the quicker you get pooped out, then you can't continue. When we were using mostly singles, many times I had to tow my wife back to launch because her legs were shot, that was our main reason for only using tandems anymore. The TI is so fast and glides so well, I peddle alone 90% of the time, with the wife in front or back just riding along and we still get somewhere pretty easily. We couldn't do that with our Oasis (just sayin).
FE


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:38 am 
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FE,
Thanks. I'm going to try the pedal to arm lines.

Also good to hear that you do not have trouble pedaling with another person who is not. That says to me that it's time I go ahead with my plan to get an electric motor and battery. I've been put off by the weight of a battery big enough to really be usable, and/or the cost of Li ion. Perhaps a hundred pound gel cell will not make solo pedaling horrible when not using the motor.

Brian


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