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 Post subject: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:59 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm
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Location: Houston, TX
A few days ago I had the pleasure of sailing with a good friend who had recently posted on the forum about his addition of a jib to his TI. I had been of the impression that the TI's bow was too short to have a jib big enough to make a significant difference to performance. Well, he proved that it could be done. He purchased a jib that was sized at 110% or so meaning in it ran about 10% of its length aft of the mast. This made the jib big enough to do the job.

I was almost keeping up with him with my AI/jib until he unfurled the jib and then he was gone. His is the fastest island I have ever sailed with. He had cleverly reinforced the bow and was not taking in water through the front hatch.

So I now am a believer. A jib will add to a TI's performance if sized right. Maybe he will comment on his jib if we're lucky.

I post some pics or video later.

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2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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Last edited by vetgam on Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:13 pm 
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
Hmmmm...eagerly waiting.

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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:59 pm 
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Here is a picture of the TI. You may need to zoom in a bit to see the sail overlap. The overlap makes up for the shorter bow on the TI and I think makes this jib work well.

Image

Here is a short video just before the winds pickup. I should have taken more video then but was having too much fun sailing

http://vid1281.photobucket.com/albums/a520/offshoreweekends/20161005_111624_zpskduhrmbt.mp4

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:16 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Thats what I've been telling everyone for over six yrs now. I have only gone out once without my jib about a year ago, I had to kayak with the AMA's folded and jacked up a mile or so up a small river to get to the ocean, and had to drop the mast to get under us 41 and a couple other low bridges so I left the jib back at the campsite. The winds were fairly strong from the south, and I tried to make my way down to stump pass, I normally with the jib would have easily made it by pointing close into the wind (about 20 deg). I started just south of blackburn point (maybe a mile or two south) for those that know the area.
I got really frustrated and couldn't point much closer than about 50 degrees off the wind. Yea I was sailing like mad but my vmg really sucked so I gave it up and headed back, thinking man this really does suck. I'm just sayin the difference is like night and day (mostly upwind). Dropping the mast with the jib takes me maybe two minutes longer, next time I'll be bringing that jib along. Just saying.
FE


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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:49 pm 
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I hear you. Although the spin works nicely on a close reach in light winds, the jib is where its at when winds exceed about 10mph. Since I started snuffing the jib, the performance change is so much more apparent when the jib is so quickly raised and lowered.
Can't imagine sailing without a foresail of one type or other now. I'm sold on them.

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:58 pm 
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
That doesn't look like the hobie mast topper. Did he fabricate himself? You'll have to let us know where he found the jib. I like his roller furling setup.

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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:59 am 
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Location: Houston, TX
Tom, here is something to think about. He is interested in switching to a snuffing option. Here are some reasons to consider this.

You only need one Hobie snuffing bag to be able to carry multiple foresails on your boat. You can add snuffing holes with patches to each sail and if you use light sail materials and they can all be changed out and snuffed in the Hobie bag- just not all at one time of course. They can all be raised and lowered with the spinnakers rigging. No extra lines are needed including the sheets. With quick releases you can change out sails in about 60 seconds (without leaving your seat) and store the unused sails down in the cockpit hatch. Snuffing is less effort than furling and this is his reason he is considering the switch. I currently switch back and forth between jib and spinnaker and will be adding a genoa this month. Fixed furling rigging won't give you that flexability because your saIL is attached to the furler.

I will try to get some pictures and maybe video showing this in action. Hobie has made this option easy by creating a wonderful off the shelf snuffing system.

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:53 am 
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One thing I wonder about.. the jib would move the overall sail center of effort forward compared to the design configuration. Some of you might remember on a windsurfer how you moved the sail forward in order to go down wind and moving the sail CE forward on the TI would also aid in making the boat go down wind. And a sailing boat with the CE too far forward has trouble going up wind.

I think the TI does fine upwind with the stock single sail. Adding the jib without moving the mast back a little might degrade how well the boat goes upwind? The reacher/ spinnaker kit would have the same issue but that is mainly a down wind sail..


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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:33 am 
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Hopefully the owner of the boat will post his thoughts on that. We discussed this the day we sailed. As I recall, I believe he sail their was some Lee helm in light winds but as they pick up, everything balanced out. Hopefully he can give us more incite on this. I have not experienced Lee helm with the AI jib although who knows what a genoa or larger jib might do.

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:33 am 
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You'd think some aftermarket sail manufacturer would be interested in selling a jib kit for the TI if Hobie wasn't. Or at least someone could publish details on how to have one made.

I held back on buying the spinnaker as I found its usefulness too limited, but a jib would be more versatile and worth the extra expense and trouble. I would definitely buy one.


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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:11 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Your the only one, that's the problem some of us were requesting that Hobie do as they said they were going to do when the boat was released in 2010, When announced they stated they were working on a jib option and that would release shortly after the April release of the boat. Yea I fell into that one hook line and sinker, I would have bought a new H16 had I known that, and definately would not have bought the TI.
I started talking about jibs on this forum and was chided badly, 90% or so of the responents said the boat is just perfect as is and said there is no need for a jib on these boat's and they much prefer the simplicity and ease of rigging.
It appear's I didn't get that memo, because I thought the stock boat really sucked, especially in the normal lighter air in this area ten months out of the year.
Frankly I got tired of peddling 2-3 mph out in the hot florida sun for hrs on end, and got tired of waiting for Hobie, so I just went ahead and designed and built all my own stuff, and have been perfectly happy with the boat ever since. I don't really care what anyone else does with their TI, I'm perfectly happy with what I have.
I can't really speak much on the stock TI, because I've only sailed one 3 times, twice 6 yrs ago, and once about a year ago, my opinion hasn't changed, but all that is all just my own opinion, and I really suck as a sailer apparently, because when I go out with just the main, it just luffs like a flag and offers no propulsion. Peddling at 2-3 mph for ten hrs in 95 deg sun really bites the big one in my opinion.
FE


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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:39 pm 
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Location: Benicia, CA
Couple thoughts.

Jib and lee helm...It stands to reason that if you put a sail in front of the center of effort (CE) of the underwater foils, you will probably overbalance the built in weather helm and end up with lee helm. How much can you tolerate without being slower overall? That depends on how much rudder you have to use to stay on course. That, of course, depends on how much wind there is and how efficient your rudder is. SO, what windspeed do you want to use a jib in will tell you how big to make the jib. You also have to know that there will likely be a lot of luff round with the luff falling off to leeward simply because there's no backstay (you may be able to fake it, though, with a good amount of halyard tension and mainsheet and/or by inserting a non stretch cord into the jib luff). My most recent jib went to the mast head and had no non stretch cord in the jib luff--the jib fell off to leeward a bunch and I had horrible lee helm. The jib just wasn't driving forward. My first fix of this was to shorten the jib luff since I was two blocked at the top--hopefully, I can now put more jib halyard tension and keep the luff nearer to centerline.

Snuffing jibs. The hardest thing I'm finding is finding a good fabric. Dacron is just too stiff to snuff, mylar will break down quickly by being scrunched. I'm currently trying a polyester fabric (Surlast) but it is a lot stretchier than dacron.

For me, snuffing jibs and spinnakers are the way to go in small boats. My next project is a snuffing windseeker jib made of polyester kite material. After I see how that works (assuming it does), I may make another heavy weather jib by doubling the polyester kite cloth for use in above 10 kt winds.

I'm also trying the flatter cut spinnaker which might give me the needed upwind performance in light wind making the windseeker redundant.

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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:13 pm
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Location: San Antonio, TX
Well, I didn't realize there was a thread going on about my jib! Thanks for the compliments, Greg.

So, I bought the jib used from Masthead Sailing Gear - http://www.mastheadsailinggear.com They have a bunch of cheap, used jibs that could be candidates for our boats. According to them, the jib is from a "US 2.4 Meter" boat. It was made by North Sails and is 4oz dacron. I believe it is around 35 square feet. I can measure the dimensions if anybody is interested.

As Vetgam confirmed, the jib definitely adds speed to the boat. After unfurling the sail and setting the jib sheet, I can feel the boat get a bit of a speed boost. When the jib is out in the right winds, the boat definitely moves faster than what I'm used to.

There seems to be a sweet spot, around 5 to 10 mph winds, where the effect of the jib is felt the most. Below this range, lee helm is very bad (which I expected) and I have to over correct the rudder to keep the boat on course, which slows the boat way down. The lee helm also makes it hard to get the boat pointed towards the wind and windward sailing is pretty much impossible with the jib. Using the mirage drive to "motor sail" in these light winds, helps bring balance back to the helm and the jib starts to provide a bit of boost. Once the winds get to about 5-7mph, the drive is no longer needed and the boat starts sailing, although lee helm is still bad. In this mode, I'll pretty much sit out on the haka up by the mast and out above the front aka bar to help balance the helm. This is one of the best views, watching the jib work, and watching the hulls pierce through the calm water. Once the winds pick up to about 7-10mph, the helm balances out and I'll move back to the center of the boat over the rear aka. This is where the effect of the jib is felt the most. Around 12mph I feel that the boat is being over powered and I'll furl the jib.

I'm still working on my furling system. At first, I had the jib furling around a pvc mast, which worked great, but the weight of the pvc killed the jib shape. I then ditched the pvc and just used some low stretch line along the luff of the jib. The jib shape improved greatly but unfurling the jib was not smooth at all. I then replaced the low stretch line with some tubing that I had laying around that is used for the water supply line for refrigerator ice makers. This improved the unfurling of the sail but it still doesn't work as great as I'd like. My next attempt will be to try some 1/2" pex tubing.

I'd love to snuff the jib and ditch all of the furling stuff, but the dacron definitely doesn't seem snuff friendly.

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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:05 pm 
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I get the feeling that in order to snuff a jib, you may need to have a jib built with CodeO fabric like I did after tpdavis473's recomendation. This material is just light enough to snuff. This may be a deal killer for some because you will pay $400 to have it built.

If someone wanted one built, included with snuffing hole patches, they can contact Banks Sails in Kemah. They will ask some questions to determine your goals and needs make a sail and ship it to you. They ship anywhere. I spoke to them today and they were making a jib for someone's AI. They made my jib and refurbished my AI's main. All quality work.

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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 Post subject: Re: Jibs and the TI
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:12 pm 
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Another thought. I do not get any noticable Lee helm. This may be because I sail an AI or because I have a jib sized at 100% vs the 110% that chadbach is using. I suspect it is an AI vs TI thing. Once my genoa is made I should be able to answer that. I don't get Lee helm when using the Hobie Spinnaker upwind.

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

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