Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:25 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: rudder issue
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:46 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:26 pm
Posts: 13
Location: Long Island,NY
NorskBoy wrote:
reconlon wrote:
If you don't cleat it tight, you will not have good rudder control at sailing speed.

Kayaking Bob


How much tension is too much?

I know when I snapped my rudder pin, last week, on my second sail with the new Up/Down system I was in a pretty good wind and had really reefed it down, perhaps too much. I still think this may come back to the fact what with the twist and stow rudder system Hobie solved a problem that wasn't a problem. This is not an issue on a typical Adventure but as soon as you add outriggers, a sail and the oversized rudder. It appears that the performance may exceed the design loads of the twist and stow. Seems like a simple solution would be to go back to standard flip up rudder. It won't be as elegant, but it should have a much lower failure rate.

Snapping a rudder pin or worse destroying the whole system as in the photo above are both inconvenient and dangerous in the right/wrong conditions.

NorskBoy


What happened with me with the twist and stow was that the the rudder would pop free and I'd lose control - all it took was a little gust or during a turn. It was pretty scary as I was entering the state channel and nearly collided with a "large boat". Hobie would not recognize this as a danger and warranty it or at least give you a free upgrade. Thats why I'm concerned when I hear of problems with the new system. I almost wish I went with a Kayak without the sail at this point as you cant use it in the wind without worries:)

_________________
HowieR6


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:21 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2238
Location: Maui, Hawaii
Hobie has new improved and strengthened rudder pins for the AI. We've been using test pins for months now and haven't broken a pin or assembly since. You can tell the new pins by the D shaped top instead of round (so they can pass the rudder up/down lines when installing).

Kayaking Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:58 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Redmond, Wa.
I have order four new pins to have on hand, I wonder if they will be the new design or not.

If the issue is with new updown lines transferring load to the next weakest link in the system, if we fix the rudder pin, is catastrophic failure of the entire assembly (as pictured earlier in this thread) the next link in the chain.

I hope not...

I also want to be clear, I love my Adventure Islands :D even with these issues. I plan to do some long trips in the San Juan's this spring and want to be sure I am prepared. A rudder failure could certainly put a damper on a vacation.

_________________
NorskBoy

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:08 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2238
Location: Maui, Hawaii
After going through 3 rudder assembles early on (mostly my fault), we keep a spare on hand, and even bring one with us (in the hull) on longer trips. It sounds worse than it is. We have 4 AI's here (2 are friends) plus others that join us at times, so it's not all me breaking things. Before the new rudder pins, we started going through many pins, sometimes 2-3 each outing. But 4-6' wind waves are a normal day here. We haven't broken one since using the new pins.

Two of the rudder assemblies I lost, were trying rudder winglets, which I proved do NOT work in our waves. Many great mod. ideas out there for the AI's. And Hobie keeps improving them. What a great boat!

Kayaking Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:08 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:12 am
Posts: 420
Location: Florida
reconlon wrote:
Hobie has new improved and strengthened rudder pins for the AI. We've been using test pins for months now and haven't broken a pin or assembly since. You can tell the new pins by the D shaped top instead of round (so they can pass the rudder up/down lines when installing).

Kayaking Bob


Once again Hobie listens and makes improvements. Wonderful support for a great craft.

Q. Other than the "D" shape top to the pin does it have a different part number?

I am always mail ordering parts and need to make sure when I order new rudder pins I am getting the strengthened version.

Maybe Matt can provide more info or Roadrunner a couple of pics. I am already aware of 2 older styles of rudder pins (a split tapered pin, & solid plastic pin w/ cotter keys top & bottom) So, this would be the 3 type of rudder pin.

TIA

Yakaholic


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: New pin
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:21 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 9135
Location: Oceanside, California
Quote:
Q. Other than the "D" shape top to the pin does it have a different part number?


Same part number. The round head is just flattened off on one side to help pass the control lines during installation.

Current stock on our shelf is still the round head.

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:20 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:10 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Rio Vista, CA
I've been reading this thread with great interrest. Although my wife and I push our boats pretty hard, (not as hard and some of you characters here :wink: ) we have not had a rudder failure as of yet. I have resently converted our boats to the new 'T' handle up/down haul system but we have only been out once with the new system (mighty cold and nasty weather).

We are planning a trip to Santa Cataliana Is., 26 miles of open ocean. Having a rudder failure with no land in site is a scary thought.

I have no prior experiance with Hobie kayaks before the AI's, but I did notice on a friends older Hobie yak that the rudder headstock was made of formed stainless rod stock and for kick-up it pivoted straight back and up. Very simple, no side loading forces pushing the blade out of it's down lock, and strong. Also, this is existing Hobie engineering.

Can you guys with more experiance shead some light about this older Hobie rudder system and if it might be a viable alternative on the AI?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:05 pm 
Offline
Hobie Team Member

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
Posts: 617
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Bob

Sorry to hear about the wing tip not working out.

I broke (sorry roadrunner) the first one transporting the yak. Hadn't gotten around to making another since I got the new balanced sailing rudder..

I finally wrung out the AI yesterday.

Went to South Point. Winds around 18+ knts, gusts to 22 or more? (weather ananometer report). Wind waves 6-8 feet.

Not nice for fishing, and hell beating to windward, but I was interested in the safety aspects of getting caught out in similar, or worse conditions which has happened to me a couple of times..

I'll post the trip later with some photos.

My initial impression is that these conditions overwhelm the current rudder.

Tacking was difficult even with pedals. Almost had to wait for the right wave to turn into tack.

I note Phil's foils [ http://philsfoils.com/designTips.html#rudderplanform ]state:

thick foils have higher drag, but more lift, and they won't stall until higher angles of attack. Thick foils are also mechanically stronger, all else being equal.
Considerations:

if you steer aggressively in waves, then consider going for a thicker section.
The NACA0012 section (12% as thick as its chord) is a good compromise.


Not sure if a thicker section would have helped. Maybe a longer rudder? If so consider the flip side is down swell. Is a higher aspect ratio needed? Again from Phil's site:

Aspect ratio: if you've ever had the experience of going really fast downwind in your sailboat and had the rudder feeling just 'go away' (it feels like there's nothing back there) then you're a good candidate for a higher-aspect ratio rudder blade. A high aspect rudder has a more sure feel to it at higher speeds, but with the trade off of losing steerage earlier in light air. High aspect ratio rudders also have to be built stronger - the longer blade has more leverage and is more likely to break if it loads up (if a rudder is going to break, it usually breaks where it enters the headstock).

Phil lists Hobie's Aerodynamic Forces as one of his references. I'm sure the Hobie engineers know all of the above.

What they probably don't know is the usage the AI is being put too. The ocean conditions. So they design for what they experience? Southern Cal?

While the rudder can't be changed in a few seconds, it doesn't take more than a few minutes. Maybe an option would be several rudders. I would not mind paying to have an extra one for my conditions. To be able to quickly change for conditions would IMHO be a big plus.

Several yak companies can do fast rudder swaps BTW. Mirage takes a minute.

http://www.mirageseakayaks.com.au/featu ... tures.html

So for the '09 yak,and RETRO FITS as appropriate, several rudders, STRONGER RUDDER MECHANISM, faster swap out, and hatches big enough to stash your spare rudder (and drive).

PS Rio

I've crossed the channel in an OC-6. Also operated there many years while in the Navy.

I think your big problem may be spells of not be enough wind. Try and pick something where its blowing 10-12 knots. Would the tail end of a Santa Ana blowing offshore be OK?

http://www.weather.gov/forecasts/graphi ... a.php#tabs

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:47 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:57 am
Posts: 222
Location: Phuket, Thailand
Quote:
Went to South Point. Winds around 18+ knts, gusts to 22 or more? (weather ananometer report). Wind waves 6-8 feet.


much the same wind as the day I bust my rudder housing, but I experienced just half the wave size. beating upwind was do-able but I was heavily reefed.

P


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: rudder issue
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:02 pm 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2416
Location: Escondido
Howier6 wrote:
I almost wish I went with a Kayak without the sail at this point as you cant use it in the wind without worries:)

Of course you can! Use the small sail with your AI and put your worries to rest.
Image

Image

In a pinch the AI will even double as a regular kayak. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:10 pm 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2416
Location: Escondido
Rio Dan wrote:
...I did notice on a friends older Hobie yak that the rudder headstock was made of formed stainless rod stock and for kick-up it pivoted straight back and up. Very simple, no side loading forces pushing the blade out of it's down lock, and strong. Also, this is existing Hobie engineering.

Can you guys with more experiance shead some light about this older Hobie rudder system and if it might be a viable alternative on the AI?


Those are now obsolete. It is also noteworthy that the rudders and speeds were considerably smaller then. With AI rudder stresses, there is no indication that the older system would be any better. In any event, the hull molds were different for that system, and they would not be readily adaptable to the new boats. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: New pin
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:34 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:12 am
Posts: 420
Location: Florida
mmiller wrote:
Quote:
Same part number. The round head is just flattened off on one side to help pass the control lines during installation.

Current stock on our shelf is still the round head.


Should I try calling Hobie direct in an effort to get the strengthened pins? Or are these pins just not available yet?

9 out of 10 times the dealers are far behind on the update/upgrade curve. Us "forum reading" Hobie-holics are a real pain :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:00 pm 
Offline
Hobie Team Member

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
Posts: 617
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
I found a source of pins. Plastic coat hanger.

Mine were .28 inches in diameter versus pin .30

They will flex, but I couldn't snap it with my hands, or beating with a hammer on a pin length mounted in a vice.

So not emergency shear friendly. But maybe keep a couple with you if your having difficulty in heavy seas and lose a spare or two during replacement process in heavy seas, or are making a multi day expedition.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:42 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Redmond, Wa.
I am going into Hobie Cats Northwest today to pick up the four pins I ordered for spares. I am disappointed to hear that I likely will not will not be getting the new pins. :cry:

Matt Miller; when or how do I order the new and improved pins?

Thanks,

_________________
NorskBoy

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:09 pm 
Offline
Hobie Team Member

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:55 am
Posts: 96
Location: North Shore Oahu Hawaii
i have found a good replacement pin for the rudder. since the new replacement pin i have had not one issue. i am trying to work with hobie egineer jim on some of my modifications. I have had another safety issue and i am very surprised that none of you have had this happen becasue you would have posted it if you had. however it will happen if you keep sailing rough water.

I will be in contact with hobie soon. due to some heart problems on our dealer side there has been a delay. some time hopefully next week i am turning in my old hull for shippment to hobie. they have made some good modifications on the 08's but failed to address some magor safety concerns.
The Hobie AI is an awesome vessel. it has had some problems but the amount of fun to be had is abundant. I think hobie will have a lot of the bugs worked out soon and you can count on years of safe fun. Aloha Boogie-D

_________________
I love AI kayak fishing


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group