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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:23 pm 
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I'm always impressed with the pedalers who say they can pedal their Hobie Adventure-mode at 4-5 mph for hours.

Well, one of the "Official Hobie Bashing Pro Staff" on the unmentionable south Florida fishing forum, complains about Hobie AIs being compared to kayaks--basically he just likes to complain about Hobies (as I say, he is not nearly as vocal as he was a year or 2 ago.) Still, it seems to me, if the Hobie Adventure-mode kayak was as fast as some on our forum like to say, one or more should enter the Watertribe Everglades Challenge 2013. It starts the first week in Mar, 2013. They would be a Class 1 or 2 boat (Hobie AIs are class 5.) Of course, such a Hobie Adventure-mode racer could use a paddle and pedal--boy, would that make these people scream.

That race would really be interesting.

Keith

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Have you taken your's out in Adventure mode Keith? They really are pretty fast when they're not dragging amas through the water.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:33 pm 
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I have pedaled in the Adventure-mode but I can't really get up to 5 mph, maybe 4. But, there is also the distance factor. Now, my sailing friends sometimes complain at me, because I pedal most of the time. I don't pedal fast, I just pedal. Frankly just sailing bores me a bit, so I pedal just for something to do and to go a little faster.

But, here I am talking about a serious long-distance race. One in which the strong paddlers put in 40 miles per day. And they do that with a fully loaded kayak and on a short night's rest. Has any Adventure-mode pedaler done that--just for 1 day?

I have learned to love my AI. It is really a great boat. And I love its versatility. When I sail on a camping trip, and then fish, I much prefer to fish in the Adventure-mode, provided I don't have to pedal 3 mi to the fishing grounds.

So, don't get me wrong, I love the AI. Still, some of the people on the "S FL fishing forum" really spew out venom about Hobies. They question the "further and faster" claim about Hobies and the mirage drive. They grudgingly give the AI its due, especially after this year's Everglades Challenge. But, frankly, since I love to sea kayak, I harbor the belief that a good sea kayak paddler can actually go faster and further than an Adventure-mode pedaler.

So what a great test, the Adventure-mode pedaler in the Everglades Challenge.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:38 am 
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Chekika wrote:
...They question the "further and faster" claim about Hobies and the mirage drive. ... I harbor the belief that a good sea kayak paddler can actually go faster and further than an Adventure-mode pedaler...


I have to agree. But I think if the Mirage drive system would be put into a true lightweight, and sleek kayak, it would probably come out on top.

Most people kayaking a good sea kayak, aren't paddling heavy, wide flat bottomed boats like the Adventure. The mirage drive is great in the wind because you never pull your drive out of the water (unlike a paddle which comes out regularly) but in calm water, I find that paddling a good kayak is probably faster.

In my experience, the biggest benefit to the mirage drive is the lack of skill involved in using it. Good paddlers are fast only when they are able to maintain good form. Mirage drive users never lose their form.

Finally, I think the Mirage drive system has good torque, over horsepower. It can pull heavy weight very well. A paddler (in a sleek kayak) produces more horsepower than torque, better at maintaining high speed easily, but tougher to get heavy weight moving.

Just my two cents.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:28 am 
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augaug wrote:
I have to agree. But I think if the Mirage drive system would be put into a true lightweight, and sleek kayak, it would probably come out on top.

Of course, if you are going to do that, then the kayakers will pull out their surfskis, which can do on the order of 10-13 mph.

Going back to my original suggestion, that of an Adventure-mode racer entering the Everglades Challenge, that would be a great race. They wouldn't have to win, just finish in the middle of the pack of kayakers would be fine. I do think an Adventure-mode racer, who prepared mentally and physically like the successful Watertribe person does, could do quite well. Maybe there is not an Adventure-mode person that interested. That could be the case. But, if there was, and if they were interested enough to prepare properly, that would be a great race.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:37 am 
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Chekika wrote:
augaug wrote:
I have to agree. But I think if the Mirage drive system would be put into a true lightweight, and sleek kayak, it would probably come out on top.

Of course, if you are going to do that, then the kayakers will pull out their surfskis, which can do on the order of 10-13 mph.
...
Keith


Surfskis are fast but can not carry much gear, and the existence of faster boats does not negate augaug's point. Sea kayaks are faster boats than Adventures, for the most part. Power one with a Mirage Drive instead of a paddle to get a real comparison.

The other comparison is to paddle and then pedal your kayak in Adventure mode. I've done it. The Adventure is a slow kayak and a chore to paddle compared to any nice sea kayak, but it can keep up with nice ones using the Mirage Drive. My conclusion: the MD is way better.

I doubt anyone could paddle an Adventure and complete the EC, but pedaling one to the finish could be done. But why, when you can sail? ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:30 am 
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Of course, one surfski specialist, Carter Johnson, did the EC in 2007. He was in Flamingo (274 mi) in 2 days and 9 hrs. He thought he could easily finish in less than 3 days, but spent most of the night and the next day mucking around in the mud east of Flamingo. That including crab crawling his surfski over the mud in the dark. He finished the 300 mi in 3 days and a couple hours.

Why pedal? (1) To show it could be done. (2) To show that it could be done in a time comparible to or better than kayakers. (3) If successful, it would be a great demonstration of the Mirage drive and the Adventure boat.

It is called the "Everglades Challenge" for good reason.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:03 am 
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Keith, we need to combine our ideas. My idea is that a faster boat based on the AI could kick the AI's butt in the EC, simply because the AI was never designed to race.

I think that if you want to demonstrate the Mirage Drive, putting it in a fast boat would be a good way to do it. Better than putting it in an Adventure for the same reason that a racing AI version would be better: the Adventure is basically a pretty slow hull. It does not paddle a whole lot better than my ancient Ocean Kayaks Malibu Two, one of the slowest sit-on-tops ever.

If you want to prove to those detractors that the Mirage Drive is great, don't handicap the poor thing with an Adventure hull! :wink: There is nothing great or special about the Adventure hull. It performs about like you would expect a sit-on-top of that length, width, and weight to perform.

I have been thinking of selling my old Ocean Kayaks Sprinter because I almost never use it. That would be a good candidate for butchering and adding a Mirage Drive. It's a fast sit-on-top, so quick that I'm not allowed to race it against the other sit-on boats. When I race it against real sea kayaks, I get my head handed to me. It's significantly faster to paddle than the Adventure and would probably really move with a Mirage Drive.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:47 am 
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For the 2006 Ultimate Florida Challenge I believe Pelican used a Kruger SeaWind (kevlar,65-70 lbs,great hull design) modified to accept a Mirage drive. He made it all the way around Florida in about 27 days.

I think he had it up for sale a while back and there must be a reason he switched to the Adventure Islands.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:46 am 
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Randy, you are right that Pelican made it around FL (26 days, 16 hrs); however, he used a Kruger fitted with a Mirage drive (wow, cut a hole in a Kruger--that is like taking a chainsaw to your Mother.) But, it was also fitted with a Balogh sail and outriggers. While I am sure he pedaled plenty, the Balogh sail can sail upwind. In fact a similar boat was used this year by Cwolfe (sans mirage drive), and he did very well coming in a few hours after our AI finishers, Dogslife and Tidetraveller, but ahead of AhMaChamee.

Still, for Pelican to butcher that Kruger, he clearly preferred to use a Mirage drive rather than paddle the Kruger. Presumably, just like our AIs, he did have a paddle. The race was won that year by Sharkchow in a kayak, followed by Manitowcruiser in a Kruger. Neither used a sail. They finished in a bit over 19 days. Pelican finished in 26 days, 16 hrs.

You all know that Pelican runs some sort of motivational business. These long distance races for him are grist for the mill. More power to him, but he needs to finish the UF in an AI. Maybe this is the year. If not, it will have to be Dogslife.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:19 am 
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In the UF 2006 Sharkchow used a Spirit sail and Manitou used a Balough rig.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the Kruger does have the leg room to use a mirage drive and is a bombproof boat with a better hull design.

I used to have one, but sold it to buy a TI. The thing I didn't like was the inflatable amas on the Balough rig.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:39 am 
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Randy, you are really up on this stuff. The roster did not say Sharkchow had a sail--but I'll take your word for it.

I think your conversion from Kruger to Tandem was a good move. In FL and other southern climates, Kruger doesn't make sense, especially at its price point. On the other hand, this year's EC sold me on the idea that you do need a dry suit for a race like the EC. The conditions were just too rough, too wet for anything else.

Keith

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I sail: Key Biscayne, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:01 am 
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I've been following the Watertribe for about 6 years. I participated in the 2011 EC in my Kruger and made it to Choko with a hard earned smile on my face before I pulled the plug. I was happy with my accomplishment even though I did not finish. I had lots of excitement!! The Kruger really took care of me as I was being blown out to sea at 1am in the morning! And I found out I could jump into it from waist deep water while I was being chased off Whitehorse Key from something that "slithered" into the water after me!

If you have not read Sharkchow's book it is a wonderful read of his 2006 UF voyage."Without a Paddle".

I have not had much time to use the TI as I manage a marina and restaurant in Marathon. The end of March or beginning of April my goal is to sail up to Cape Sable from here with a friend, spend a few days and sail back.

I look forward to joining you and your group outings sometime and you are always welcome to use our parking lot and floating dock anytime you wish.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:29 am 
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Yes, that sounds pretty exciting. Something "slithering" chased you off Whitehorse? Slithering things are something we have very rarely have run into along coastal Everglades.

I've read Sharkchow's great book, but I don't remember the details of his kayak.

Let me know when you head for Cape Sable, and I may be able to join you.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:46 am 
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Very interesting thread!
Tom Ray wrote:
The other comparison is to paddle and then pedal your kayak in Adventure mode. I've done it. The Adventure is a slow kayak and a chore to paddle compared to any nice sea kayak, but it can keep up with nice ones using the Mirage Drive. My conclusion: the MD is way better.


This I belive for a fact. The Adventure hull is not meant for paddling. That means also that you are doing a heavier job propulsing the Adventure hull a given speed and distance. Your larger leg muscles are doing that job very well but they also consumes more energy. In a 30 days race, I think fore sure you will loose weight. You need more food than you possible can eat.

I have not done 40 miles on 1 single day with a fully packed Adventure kayak-mode hull. But I have done 30 miles.
I have also done 62 miles in 15 hours 23 min with an empty Adventure kayak-mode hull (I will not do that again...).

For a 30 day race it will be necessary to sail sometimes in my opinion. Or have a sleek sea kayak that glides god and give you micro pauses to resting your muscles.

BR
thomas


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