Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:41 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:57 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:07 am
Posts: 598
Location: Punta Gorda, FL
Thanks, Dan. I was wondering, does reefing affect the balance between center of effort and center of lateral resistance?

When my wife's rudder pin broke for the second time a couple of days ago, she was pretty far out in the harbor. She furled her sail and started pedaling home, but then rolled out just a bit of sail (it was windy). She reported that the boat had lee helm without the rudder, and she was using the paddle to make it come back upwind. She just had a little corner of her sail out, maybe 1/4 of it, and was reaching almost directly across the wind.

The combination of a lee helm and overpowering the ability of the paddle to turn the boat could get exciting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:18 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 5:08 pm
Posts: 35
Location: Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii
I have sailed several times without a rudder (twice without even a paddle, just a periodic hand drag). Yes, adjusting the furl affects the helm as does angling the daggerboard. The more the sail is out, the more the weather helm. Less sail means more lee helm. More daggerboard rake means more lee helm. Even in high winds and some decent chop, it's possible to get the boat almost perfectly balanced on most points of sail. It will turn up from hitting some chop or a wind gust, then turn itself right back on course. Without a rudder you can get to about 50-55 degrees into the wind. You definitely can't get all the way to close-hauled (although the reefed sail will be in tight, the top is still twisting off), because when you try to point that high anything that rounds you up even a little will stall the sail and then the boat won't want to fall back off. The real key is to keep the boat moving, which is how the balance is created.

This only applies to sailing without the mirage. I can't use it (paralyzed) and so I never have it in. I'm not sure how the balance is affected by the drive. It would be nice to have it to help in tacking in heavy winds. That isn't easy with just a paddle.

I also agree that there might be an issue with some rudder castings and pins. As mentioned in an earlier post, I had a casting that broke at the bottom hole where the pin goes through. Prior to that I would break a pin every time the wind got over 15. I went through about ten pins. In that wind, one can feel the strain on the rudder when trying to turn from a near reach to broad reach. The pins would sometimes break during the turn, but more often would break while going straight on the broad reach. I agree that during high winds, the casting may be binding on the bottom part of the pin and twisting it rather than sliding over it.

It may be specific to some castings since I haven't broken a pin since replacing the broken casting. This would also explain why only a few people seem to have extraordinary numbers of rudder pin breaks. The winds haven't been too heavy since I replaced the casting, so I can't say for sure. But, if you are getting a lot of pin breakage, I would inspect the holes on the casting for any burrs that might be grabbing the slots on the pin.

Kayaks, and the rudder systems really weren't designed for high speeds or heavy loads. So, we do have to be a bit understanding when we're taking them out into high winds. I also have adjusted my technique. I almost always rake the daggerboard (more in higher wind). As I mentioned above, this puts the boat in better balance and puts less strain on the rudder. I don't think raking the daggerboard affects leeway that much. It might even improve things a little since more of the daggerboard is in the water. I no longer even try to sail close-hauled in heavy winds. The sails stalls too often which also puts a heavy strain on the rudder. The higher speed from falling off a little makes up for the ground lost to windward (sailboarder mentality). Also, I try to avoid any full swings of the rudder. If the boat doesn't respond to very slight rudder movements, it's either because the boat isn't moving forward well (the sail is stalled) or the rudder is stalled from cavitation. Both of these situations stress the rudder too much and aren't the fault of the rudder. If you can't get good control with slight movements, then you should adjust your sailing technique, which should include furling the sail and not trying to point too high.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:35 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:07 am
Posts: 598
Location: Punta Gorda, FL
Thanks for the input, k-bay!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:53 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 36
Location: Belfast, Maine
Well I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. This rudder pin discussion has me somewhat mystified. I hope that this issue hasn't or won't prevent people from buying an AI. I've completed my second summer with my AI with zero problems. Zero. I've never broken a rudder pin but have broken the 1000 mile mark with my AI. My last trip, my favorite trip, took four days. I left Lincolnville Beach, Maine--and sailed to Acadia National Park then through Eggemoggin Reach back to Belfast. I typically put 30 miles on in a day with eight and a half hours being the max time I've spent in the boat in a single day. Several times I've sailed in a gale with about 28 inches of foot out. I've run down-wind in five foot seas for three hours, and I've pounded the hell out of this boat in a reach in 2 foot seas(most stressful on akas) crossing from Castine to Belfast. I've burried the bow and both amas at the same time which gets your attention. I've seen 10.4 on the gps but suspect I've been much faster.(I don't always carry it.) My longest peddle was 15 miles before the wind finally came up. The secret for long distance peddling is simply take it slow. 2 and a half to 3 miles per hour is plenty. The AI is an enginerring marvel. For camping, fishing, sailing, exercising and just plain fun it can't be beat. The adjustable seat and the lack of having to ballance such as in kayaks, canoes, and skulling shells makes it easy on the back and body. Thanks to designer Greg Ketterman and Hobie for enriching the quality of my life. Now the fact these boats aren't everywhere only supports my belief that most of the world is brain dead.

_________________
DougDNer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:34 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Newport, NH
Well put bro, my hat's off to Greg also! I hope to make it up to your neck of the woods before winter. I have the guide to paddling the Maine coast, it doesnt mention camping. Can you camp on any of the islands in that area? Any you would recommend? I'm looking to do a 3-4 day trip, any advice is appreciated.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:07 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 36
Location: Belfast, Maine
I pretty much liked to wing it ---have a destination but let what happens between launch and destination unfold as it may. It makes for more interesting excursions but really isn't responsible--as many of the islands are home to wildlife --birds, animals and vegetation that really don't need humans in their homes. I have since joined MITA, Maine Island Trail Association, the nations first water trail which extends all the way to Canada. Membership brings you a book with maps and descriptions of the various islands and what they have to offer--ie campsites, privys, water,and there's even some historical information. Some of the Islands are privately owned and the owners have specific guidelines for visitors and some are owned by the state. The area to the north east of Isleboro extending to Mt Desert is considered by many to be the most spectacular in the world. You'll need a good gps (preferably with a chip) and a good dry suit. A camera would be nice too.

_________________
DougDNer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:43 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 36
Location: Belfast, Maine
I forgot to reply to the recommend part, so here goes. I would put in in Lincolnville (there's parking there--$10 a day) which is just north of Camden. It's just a couple of miles across the bay to Warren Island-- a state park just for boaters. Beautiful campsites, two with lean- to's and nice privys, firewood and water. there's a live-in ranger (Sunshine) who is very helpful too. You could use the Island as a base camp and plan excursions based on weather reports. You'd be in striking distance of several Island Trail islands --also Stonnington and Old Quary Campground which has great hot showers. I would strongly recommend a marine radio to keep up with weather and emergency issues. My gps is a garmin and I bought the chip ($150) which shows every mussel shell from Canada to Camden. If you are doing a one- time trip and want to save on the chip and have a garmin I'll lend you my chip--and my radio if you don't have one.

_________________
DougDNer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:36 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Newport, NH
dougDNer, thanks for the info and the offer with the chip. I use a magellan gps (unfortunately). Im all set as far as vhf, never go on the ocean without it. I am fixin' to check google earth now and scope out the area. Sorry to get off subject with the rudder pins, I just had to ask! With that info, Im sure I can find the answer to any other questions reguarding the island. Thanks again....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Rudder Pin
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:02 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:36 pm
Posts: 2
We purchased two AIs a couple of weeks ago and took them out on Lake Houston for a couple of shakedown sails this past weekend. We had a blast! It's amazing how fast you can go with them. One of our Labrador retrievers rode along with me in the back. The pedals are great for keeping you moving and turning when you come up into the wind.
Yesterday, the wind was about 15 mph and we were really flying on a close reach, when all of a sudden my husband's boat headed up into the wind and stopped. The rudder pin failed. He made it the mile back home by using the paddle as a rudder. We have the new pull cord tie down rudder system with the "D" style rudder pin. I'm heading back to the dealer to stock up on rudder pins.
Why is the rudder pin all of a sudden a problem with these boats? I understand that it is meant to be the weak link, but has it been weakened in the last year?

_________________
Sandra
Houston, TX


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:43 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Newport, NH
Hobie must be going through the pins left and right......my replacements have been on back order since mid August.

I used a bolt for the mean time, I thought something broke yesterday. I heard a pop come from the rudder area and immediately lost steering. I furled the sail and raised the rudder for inspection. I couldnt find anything broken on the rudder or the hull. It did however make me reconsider using a bolt as a replacement.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:50 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:07 am
Posts: 598
Location: Punta Gorda, FL
That's strange, donjoe. I ordered 15 pins and Hobie quickly sent them. But turbo fins for our Mirage Drives are on back order. I still have not tried a Mirage Drive with turbo fins.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:18 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:36 pm
Posts: 73
Location: back in TX Inks Lake near Burnet Tx
I also recieved rudder pins recenly from stock,never had on fail but learning from others. Tom once youv'e used the turbo fins you'll probably never use any other.

Joh F


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:57 pm 
Offline
Hobie Team Member

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
I've accepted the risk of using an aluminum pin replacement. I sail in some rough seas. Having changed pins a few times I no longer want to have to risk changing a pin bobbing around while I hang on for dear life trying to insert the new one.

The tradeoff is I could damage the rudder housing if I don't pull the rudder up while approaching the beach.

I accept that risk. So far I haven't forgotten to pull the rudder up :D

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:37 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Newport, NH
The pin I am currently using is steel. What are you using that is aluminum?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:55 pm 
Offline
Hobie Team Member

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Got mine at ACE.

Actually I don't what it is. Could be steel.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group