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 Post subject: Rudder pins again......
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:45 pm
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Location: Florida panhandle
I was out sailing again today with the guys in winds of 15 mph or so. Just white capping. We were in the bayou where the water was pretty flat as compared to the bay. We were beam reaching back and forth when a bit of a gust came through and "clunk"! The boat headed up and I thought the rudder slack had done it thing again but NOoooo, it was all hanging loose!
This is the second new higher strength pin that I have broken and the guys I sail with have broken them also.
Us...the guys I sail the AI's with have been sailing for years, much blue water experience along with Hobie 16 sailing. I learned to sail on a H16 in the seventies and have built several blue water tri's of Marples design and sailed them for years so we have some experience among us. We have tried to figure out what the problem is and "is it us". We are not in 25 and 30 kts of wind and waves, more like 15 to 20 wind and chop. You have seen the video's.
I would like to go back to the original rudder problem which was not enough balance and wonder if there is still not enough? Or would it be of benefit to add the home made winglet that was tried on the earlier rudders that seemed to help. I think I am going to cut down a Hobie 16 rudder and see if it will help and or may add a winglet to this existing rudder.
I can almost tell when the pin is going break due to the wind and wave action. I don't relish changing a pin 2 miles out in the bay with a mean 3 ft chop going on and I don't want to be afraid to head out because the pin is going to break again but that is what is happening.

Matt,
Can you shed some light on this? An employee at the dealer wanted me to lathe a pin out of the plastic rod that is shipped in the Mirage hold downs. I might try but that's not the right answer and neither is a SS bolt but at this point its starting to look better.
Once again I think the rudder should be balanced better....more notch, more surface in front of the pivot.
Unfortunately I didn't have the camera with me today as I hadn't recharged the batteries on the short notice to go sailing. GPS said beam reaching was a steady 8 mph with bursts up to 10 and 10.3. This was pretty flat water in the bayou and out in the bay chop it was 6 and 7 with a few spurts up to 8.5 mph. That was with the drive in. The boat with the drive out was a little faster. The Windrider 17 that was with us was ALOT faster....smokin you could say!
Thanks for listening.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:07 pm 
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Location: Oceanside, California
I personally have not seen a need for a "more" balanced rudder. I have been out in rough and windy conditions... no problem. Maybe a reef in the sail? You sure the rudder is staying down?

I can only assume you have the latest "D" head shape pin? I have not heard too much about these failing, but there does have to be a weak link to prevent transom failure.

This is no different than sailing cats. We started with Nylon pins on the 14. With the 16 we went through, aluminum, fiberglass, nylatron and stainless. Sometimes you have to make a choice... fail a pin or damage the boat or rudder housing if sailing in tough conditions. Surf launch guys commonly use a pin that fails before damaging the boat.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:46 pm 
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Location: Florida panhandle
Matt,
Thanks for the reply. I reef when the ama starts running under water with regularity. I reefed some today however not when the pin broke as the ama wasn't under water. We do have the latest "D" head pins.
When you say "is the rudder staying down" there are times when in a wave or gust the boat heads up like the pin broke or the rudder has come up but when looking back it all seems OK. That is to say the rudder seems to be down and it rotates like it should but it still feels unresponsive. I know you can pull the rudder back or up while its locked down and it will go back down again and I assume that this is what is happening. Should there be less of that slack in the rudder line? Is there an adjustment? At times it almost feels like a rudder is not all the way down on a H16 when going through the water....lots of pressure on the tiller handle. I have reefed and still get the same rudder feel. It does feel as though it were overpowered and needs to be reefed but reefing doesn't help. The rudder is well adjusted in that I get lock to lock and all points in between on both the tiller and rudder. We are not surf launching and we are not hitting anything in the water.
If there is no reasonable answer than I guess we need to get a group buy on a gross of pins!
:lol:
Sorry, I think I'm starting to ramble
Thanks :oops:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:49 pm
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Location: Newport, NH
Hey Phil, Im with you on this. If I lock the rudder (I have the old screw lock mech.), I snap pins. If Im in any decent wind, wind not enough to furl the main, the rudder seems to stop turning the craft and it immediately turns into the wind - then the rudder flips up. Im hesitant to screw down the rudder because I know the pin will snap. I see videos and pics of folks having a blast in the ocean; Im on a lake and wonder what the heck is wrong with my boat. Not to mention, the weld on my crossbar cracked! I cant maintain any forward speed in decent wind!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:47 pm 
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Location: Newport, NH
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Last edited by donjoe on Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:03 am 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Crossbar should be a warranty item IIRC

But returning to subject. I gave up and went stainless (ACE has something that will fit). Now all I have to do is make sure I pull the rudder up approaching the beach.

I felt a new rudder housing replacement beats replacing pins in high winds.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:22 am 
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Location: Newport, NH
I just went with a 5/16" bolt and wingnut with a nylon insert to get me by until my pins come in. It seems to work well. A trick that worked well for me and got me back to shore when the pin broke was to take a small nylon rope, put a knot in it, feed it up through where the pin goes (from the bottom) and tie it off to the rear handle by the pulley. I was able to sail home with good rudder control.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
The pin/bolt from a stainless 10mm x 75mm Dynabolt makes a good emergency replacement that is readily available off the shelf. (Not sure if the imperial 3/8 x 3" fits but it may be worth a try?)

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It is easy to fit and clears the lines nicely. Just drop it in.

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The longer 100mm version could be mounted upside down and with some mods a locking system to prevent the rudder kicking up could be made. I was looking at welding a small 'D' shackle to the head. The rudder could be grabbed by the shackle pin, but as I haven't had the rudder problems others have posted about it hasn't been a priority. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:24 am 
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Sounds like some of these issues are related the the rudder not staying locked down. I think your boats need the upgrade pull handle system.
For more info read this tech bulletin and get the parts through your dealer toll free 1800hobie49 (they are no charge upgrades!)

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=5958


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 Post subject: Another few thoughts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:33 am 
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Another few thoughts...

In rough conditions, the rudder will be pitching up and down. As it rises out of the water it can ventilate as it re-enters. That can cause a sudden loss of steering and round up.

Another thing to think about is the dagger board. The angle of the board will make differences in control. First be sure it is all the way down, then play with differing angles.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:45 pm
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Location: Florida panhandle
Thanks Matt,
I have had it ventilate just as you describe. I almost always keep the CB down all the way. Will it stay in place with it rotated at an angle? I will try it.
Another strange thing is that my boat is a bit faster and points higher than the other 2 that I sail with. We will have to trade off and see if it's the boats!
Do you think it would help to take some of the stretch out of the up/down lines? I visited the dealer today and he is going to order many many more pins! We seem to be the only ones around here that are breaking them.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:31 pm 
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Not sure it can stretch to the point it can't hold the rudder properly. Maybe compare to a new one?

Perhaps a solid line connection to the dagger to make adjustments?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:04 pm 
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Location: Punta Gorda, FL
My wife broke two pins this afternoon. It was breezy, maybe 15 knots of wind, just a great day to blow off work early and go sailing. With a boat show at a nearby marina, I had the excuse that I was really out demonstrating the AI to the public. ;)

We were not out 2 minutes when her rudder pin broke. Back to the ramp, which happens to be near our office. I went to the office and stole a pin from an inventory boat. Got back, put it in, and we sailed another 2 minutes before that one broke!

She always locks her rudder down, so I doubt that was the problem

I think the pins are binding somehow in strong conditions, and instead of shearing off, they're being wrung off when part of the pin twists and the rest does not go along. I'm going to try just putting some silicone grease on the pin next time. Also planning to order a dozen or so.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:23 pm 
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Location: Punta Gorda, FL
I got to go out for a few hours today and sail in mostly steady 8 to 10 knot breeze. Before coming in, I decided to pull my rudder up and sail around a bit using my paddle as a rudder. I had the perfect wind for a test - just enough to provide good constant power with the full sail and few stronger puffs. It worked well. I could mostly just brace it against the boat and let it trail alongside on the lee side. If I wanted to come up into the wind, I'd just remove it from the water a bit. To head back downwind, put it back in the water more. I was able to sail on all points of sail and jibe easily. In the light winds, I was not going to make the one tack I attempted, but a few strokes with the Mirage Drive fixed that problem. ;)

I want to try it out in stronger winds next time I get the chance. Has anyone done that?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:14 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Yep. The sail will overpower the paddle.

Solution. Reef in until you find what the paddle can handle.

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