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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 403
Location: CLEARWATER, MN
Do the rudder pins break because of side-ways torque against the side of the rudder or longitudinal (bow-stern) torque. If the rudder is
allowed to rotate part way up does this decrease the contact area of rudder to pin (more mechanical advantage for breakage)?

I assume that the pin breaks when the rudder has been rotated out of hull alignment. Do they break more if the rudder has just been swung over or
the stern/wave impact exceeds some maximum amount?

I am lucky not to have had a pin break yet, so I don't have any feel yet on how far I can stress my AI.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:00 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
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Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
I went sailing in my new Island today and in 10 to 15 knots I noticed my helm to be a little harder to steer than I was expecting. I was aware of this thread and tried lifting the re-seating the rudder and locking it down. This did not change the feeling of friction that the helm seemed to have developed. The Island wasn't rounding up to windward, but I took a moment and reefed the main slightly and it seemed to help, but not completely cure the problem. I will pull the pin out in the next couple of days and inspect it for any obvious wear and report back as it is an interesting subject....Captain Pirate


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 Post subject: Why do pins break
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:13 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:55 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
Tidelwave asked why the rudder pins break. Tom Ray ma have given us a clue.
Quote:
My wife would routinely pull the down line hard and then stick it in the jam cleat. She didn't want her rudder kicking up while sailing. I pull mine down and make sure it is all the way down, but release the line back inside the hull. I figure I might hit something, and don't care if it decides to pop up under sail (it never has).


Loocking the rudder down by cleating the line, then hitting something with the rudder would definitely break a pin, or rip the hull if the pin failed to break. Locking the rudder down by cleating the line is definitely a very bad idea. The rudder is designed to kick up if you hit something, preventing damage.

I wonder if others who have brokeen a pin have done so while the rudder line was cleated down?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:33 pm 
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Location: South Florida
The rudder is designed to be "locked down" by cleating the down line.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:21 pm 
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Location: Pensacola, Fl.
Chekika wrote:
The rudder is designed to be "locked down" by cleating the down line.


Okay, that would explain why so many people are breaking pins. Now the question is why lock the rudder down? Does the rudder kick up during normal sailing when you hit nothing but blue water? Tom Ray says he never locks his down and it has never kicked up and he has never broken a pin.

Something is amiss here! I cannot imagine Hobie having this problem ever since the AI was introduced and not addressing the problem. It would seem to me that the Hobie engineers would come up with a fix after all this time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:46 pm 
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Location: South Florida
I always cleat my down line as tight as I can pull it. I have never broken a pin.

It would be nice if a Hobie expert (Miller, RR, Kayaking Bob) would give us the benefit of their knowledge again.

Darwinian, I'll be glad when you get your own boat so you can give us your hands on experience.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:19 pm 
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Posts: 74
i need to lock down my rudder otherwise i have the ai constantly trying to head up wind...

when i start to need pressure on the rudder to keep going straight is when i reef the sail in a little until the boat sails straight with out the need to excessive pressure

has anyone tried to replace one whilst still on the water?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:25 pm 
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Location: South Florida
I suspect that some different behavior may be due to different up/down line set-ups. This new up/down system came out maybe 8-10 mo ago (my guess.) Initially, it was a do-it-yourself upgrade (some got it free, others paid, then supposedly most everyone got them free, but by that time, my receipt was long gone.) In any case, people were installing these on their own and the directions were very poor initially--and that is an understatement. Now, the system is standard and "factory" installed.

The point is that people may experience different results because their system is set up differently w/ different tensions on the lines.

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2424
Location: Escondido
Keeping the AI rudders down has always been a challenge. The Twist & Stow rudders originally relied on an external notch to lock down. Proper pivot bolt adjustment was critical to locking as well as rudder retraction.

At faster AI speeds, this was insufficient, so a screw-in locking pin was added. It would be sheered off if rudder kick-up was required. This worked somewhat, bit didn't always solve the problem.

Pull cords (with cam cleat) were introduced in late '08 (I think), replacing the old up-down lever. This improved the rudder's up/down operation and the ability to secure the rudder in the down position. I think it's still supposed to be able to kick up under force, but have not tried it.

An internal detent was developed to help lock the rudder yet allow it to kick up if necessary. I think this began with the '09s.

It's been a tough problem, partly because of the oblique retraction of the T&S design; turning to starboard somewhat mimics the up/down action. IMO, there also seems to be a performance variation between boats. Part of this might be still explained by differences in pivot bolt position. I also noticed the rudder assembly can get a slight warp from sitting in the sun after a year or so -- enough to make a difference in how well the rudder stays down.

So if you're having problems, you can try replacing the T & S assembly with the latest version (with detent). To be honest, I can't say that it will solve your problem, but should make an improvement. They all look the same from the outside, so I would recommend requesting that your dealer order one from the factory rather than sell you one from existing dealer stock.

Hobie is always making improvements so I would look for Matt to correct this info if it is not accurate or current. 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:57 am 
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Location: South Florida
Thanks, Roadrunner. Excellent info as usual. Just one minor correction: "Pull cords (with cam cleat) were introduced in late '08 (I think)" I believe you mean "late '07."

My rudder, with my self-installed up/down lines, and the down line cleated, has kicked up on one occasion.

As Roadrunner has pointed out, Hobie has regularly modified their rudder system including in the '09 model. In addition, many of the up/down upgrades are self-installed leading to more variation. There are likely manufacturing variations in these rotomolded kayaks--some boats seem to stress the pins more than others. And, of course, there are user variations in their approach to sailing these boats. With all these variables, it is no wonder that it is hard for the user to put a finger on the general problem of breaking pins.

On the first page of this thread, JBernier clearly states how Hobie recommends the up/down lines/cleat should be used.

RR, thanks again for your contribution.

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:37 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2424
Location: Escondido
Chekika wrote:
"Pull cords (with cam cleat) were introduced in late '08 (I think)" I believe you mean "late '07."
Keith, thanks for the correction -- it was a running change in the '08 models beginning in Sept '07. Sorry I wasn't clear about that. 8)


Last edited by Roadrunner on Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:43 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:59 pm
Posts: 95
Location: Danville California/Kahana Maui
I think now after putting in more hours at the helm that it is more the captain than the rudder pin. I used the nylon pin for a while until I located the Hobie pin under the hatch of my 08 but found the nylon bolt very difficult to remove even on shore. The Hobie pin does slide in and out fairly easily and does protect the boat hull from damage from hitting a coral head or one of my novice friends bottoming out on the reef trying out the boat. I have found that reefing the sail in heavier winds does work well for better speed and less pin breakage, I think that as our skill as sailors improve the pin issue will fade away and who knows Hobie may come up with a pin design that is slightly stronger but will still protect the boat from hull damage. I did order 10 pins from Kayak Fishing Stuff to make sure I have plenty of replacements.


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