Rudder Pin design

Way ahead of you Chris. I did exactly that a few days ago but the weather is still too cold to test it. I was going to wait until I tested it to post this but since the subject has been brought up I feel I must.

First I had to lock the cleat open.

And here is a close up of how it looks.

And the entire thing.

I used a two foot bungee. Tried a couple before I found one strong enough. Bungee's are not all the same strength. And you must have enough stretch left to go all the way back if required. This may not prevent the pin from breaking but it will definitely prevent it from breaking if I hit something.



I saw that photo as well and I simply cannot believe that open water did that kind of damage. To rip the transom apart like that he absolutely had to hit something!

One thing my setup will do is prevent such damage in the event I did break a pin and had to use a steel pin in order to get back in. If I hit something then the rudder would simply flip up instead of wrecking the transom. But rest assured I do not intend to use any other pin other than the Hobie supplied pin unless in an emergency. I will know by summer's end whether or not this setup prevents breaking or damage to the pin. Or, whether it even works at all. I am really anxious to try it. Oh for warmer weather.

Ron Patterson

pirate that pin certainly looks trashed. How does the hole in the rudde box look. I would start getting concerned that a pin in your condition could be accelerating the the wear of that part

The holes in the rudder box are as original being 8.4mm in diameter. The hull brass insert is 8mm diameter. The pin is 7.6mm. NO WONDER even a new pin is put under enormous stress and the reason why not only aged pins randomly fail. It seems quite incredible to me that boat owners such as Tom and Chris and I have got to be the fixers of the problem which is so obviously caused by either design or quality control faults. Matt seems to have gone very quiet on this subject even though questions are on the table to be answered. COME ON HOBIE. KEEP UP YOUR GOOD REPUTATION AND BRING OUT THE FIX....Pirate

I think it is a bad design right from the git-go. What they need is a simple spring loaded flip up rudder instead of a twist and stow, like every other small boat out there that does not have this problem.

Ron

There are lots of other off-topic threads that make refernce to rudder pin failure too - it's a pity they don't post here.
Here's a link to two:
http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=7326
http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewt ... 2837#62837

Mickey

Tom wrote:



That's a good point . I guess that bungee is not strong enough to pull the rudder back down after it pops up and is fully stretched when the line is cleated. What you would need is a bungee with enough give to stretch and allow the rudder to pop up when it hit something or encountered extreme forces, but strong enough to bring the rudder back down afterwards. Darwinian's looks about right. I guess that leads to the questions:
- Why cleat at all? (Obviously because the rudder keeps popping up)
- Could the boat be damaged using a steel pin if the rudder wasn't cleated?
- Is the rudder subject to extreme lateral forces which are not relieved by the rudder popping up?

Also, to all Americans - congratulations on your new President! Let us hope one of the issues he tackles during his first 100 days is failure of Hobie rudder pins

_________________

Sorry guys... I see nothing new to comment on. We have taken steps here at the factory to insure that the rudder pins are being built to spec. This seems to be the most likely issue in the (premature) failures noted here.

I said "premature" failures...as again...this pin is designed as a safety release, so it is expected to fail when over loaded. Just as a fuse in you car or home would.

Rest assured, we are listening and if something is in need of fixing, we will do it.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

If Mr President decides to buy a fleet of these for the recreational pursuits of himself and his family, and finds that his rudder pin fails, I feel confident that this issue will be addressed to his satisfaction
Mickey

I am fully OK with the rudder mechanism as is. If the rudder pin breaks because I hit something or run aground or back into something, that is OK with me. My boat is protected as it should be. My issue is that the rudder is breaking under sail when NOT hitting anything. This is most likely caused by a combination of side load and twisting of the pin under torque.

I think one should be quite cautious of retros that allow the rudder to kick up. I believe the rudder is actually under greater stress when it is not fully down. Any attempt to turn will be under helm and will add to the torque stress on the pin. Unlike the original Hobie Cats, which were meant to be beachable, we really shouldn't be sailing where we expect our rudders to bottom out. Thus, the rudder shouldn't be kicking up under normal sailing, just when something is hit. The mechanism should be trying to keep the rudder from kicking up unless under a very high load, otherwise the lateral resistance on the blade will slowly raise the rudder while under sail in high winds.

If I'm in deep water and somehow hit something, I would expect the current system to allow the rudder to kick up, or the pin to break. This is quite acceptable as it would happen so rarely. If I'm in shallow water, I just uncleat the rudder down line, so the rudder can easily kick up. I really don't think this is a problem. I have broken at least 5 pins, and none of them happened because the rudder didn't kick up. I doubt many of the breaks people have been experiencing would have been saved by the rudder kicking up, except under those rare circumstances when the pin really SHOULD break.

If my AMF sunbird hits something in the shallows, the centerboard swings up and immediately thereafter the rudder pops up. If my AI hits something in the shallows, the centerboard swings swings up and immediately thereafter, if I have my rudder cleated, something breaks! That is the problem. If you sail more than a couple of times a year, you are going to hit something in the shallows. It should be designed to pop up rather than break a pin.

That is why I designed a bungee system for my AI. I know I am going to sail a lot this year and I know there is a 99% chance that my rudder will hit something sometime this year, possibly several times. Cleating the rudder down will insure that I break a pin and possibly get caught way away from my car with no rudder. I don't intend to break a pin this summer but I know I would if I cleated my rudder down and sailed more than a few times.

Ron Patterson

If you have the dagger board down, its pretty hard to see how you could hit something with the rudder, that the dagger board will not first intercept. Which is why I doubt that this damage has been done by hitting things.

Geoff.

The system... as designed... has some give for the rudder to rotate up if you hit something. Unless you crank the down control with two hands, you should be fine using the cleat.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Matt would a delrin pin be to high of an amperage fuse. Also in the catamaran part I noticed kits to tighten the fit of rudder pins Since the Miracle 20 used a 5/16 pin could this be used to tighten the fit of the rudder box. Currently I have sheets of .005 and .010 thich telfon on order to try and remove some of the play in the system and reduce friction/wear. Any engineering reason this should not work.
Thanks,
Mike

The one time I was in shallow water and had the rudder cleated and hit bottom, the rudder did indeed swing up. I had to uncleat and repull the rudder down. It should be noted that even when the daggerboard is swung fully up, it still is about 6" below the bottom of the hull, not much less than the rudder. When the daggerboard is down, it takes quite a bit of effort hitting something to fully swing it up. I think the likelihood of hitting something that swings the daggerboard all the way up, clearing it, then knocking the rudder up will be rare. More likely, one would be worried when sailing in shallow water where you know it's shallow and thus already have the daggerboard swung up.

I think that if one is sailing in shallows where you worry about hitting something, you should just leave the rudder uncleated, or under light tension. The only cost would be that periodically the rudder would inadvertently kick up. But, sailing in these shallows is not the norm, at least by most of us.

If you are hard under sail and suddenly hit something, your dagger board will simply flip back, which is exactly what it was designed to do. Then if the water is shallow enough, your rudder will hit, and break a pin.

Also, because the dagger board goes deeper, a lot of people will fold it back when in the shallows. Again, it is designed to enable you to do exactly that. But they cannot steer without a rudder and because the rudder draws less, most people leave it down, even when the water is shallow and the dagger board folded back.

I cannot agree with you Geoff, I believe the damage is done to the rudder pin by hitting something or dragging it in the sand or mud while in the shallows. This eventually wears and weakens the pin and it may then break while in deeper but rough waters.

Ron