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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
Posts: 858
Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
The pin may be good Phil but I wouldn't risk it in case the pin is stronger than the plastic hull. Hobie is known for its warranty support and even though your 2008 boats may be out of warranty, they seem receptive to helping owners where the fault is of their making...Pirate

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:45 pm
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Location: Florida panhandle
I am aware of that but I am hoping that Matt will chime in here and give me a hint. Hobie went through many iterations of rudder pins for the 14 and 16 and I think Delriln was among them. It would certainly break before metal would.
I don't think that side forces from water would tear out the transom before the rudder box or some other part of the rudder broke. I could be wrong but just can't see it happening.

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 8:58 am 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
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Location: Oceanside, California
Guys with catamarans have long had to make the decision on whether to risk transom damage or not by using a stronger pin. Just a fact of life for cat sailing... should be the same for the AI. Most of them use stainless or aluminum pins knowing that hitting something from the wrong direction (not moving forward) would be at their own risk. Certainly not a warranty issue. We have taken a MUCH softer approach for the AI. Maybe we shouldn't? Problem is that the kayak hulls are not as easily repaired when damaged, so we try to limit that possibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:43 am 
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Location: Florida panhandle
Matt,
Could you check with your engineers or whom ever and see if they know where Delrin is on the breaking scale compared to what is in use now or what they may be contemplating?
This seems to still bend but not quite as much as a new pin. It also seems to deform less. Someone have a load cell?

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 12:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2498
Location: Central Florida
Besides hitting something with the rudder, keep in mind the flexing forces being transferred to the transom area of the AI while sailing with a stronger pin.

We (some of the Hawaii owners) have been experimenting with reinforcing our transom areas with different materials including Silicon Adhesive, Scotch epoxies and West Systems Gflex. (About 4 oz. seems to fill the transom to make it more solid.) I have found that the amount of plastic molded in the transom area varies greatly by hull, but ALL are hollow in at least parts. By filling the transom area, hopefully we are moving the stress forces to a larger, stronger area.

For most AI users, the (newer) standard pins and current hull structure should be fine without any modifications.

Kayaking Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
Posts: 598
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
As long as we are pinging on Matt to get answers from the engineers.

Let's separate the problems of :

1. Hitting something versus

2. A rudder strain that effects the housing or the transom extension.

If I install a pin that won't break when I hit something, in my mind damage from that is a risk with an acceptable trade off versus having to change a pin at sea.

But what about 2. above? If the housing breaks it's a comparative minor expense ($52.95 with a big rudder) to replace versus the transon extension cracking. So I think reconlon has a legit hypothesis. which needs an anwser. Does filling the empty space around the pin sleeve in the transom extension spread the load around for metal (unbreakable) pin loads from waters forces only on the rudder? ( Read that again slow like for all the words.) :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 10:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:57 am
Posts: 222
Location: Phuket, Thailand
Yes, PLEASE, an answer to that one! I went thru a few rudderpins when i first started gave up on them and went to a brass pin. One time in windy conditions about 1 1/2 years ago I hit something and bust the rudder housing, the price you pay for modifying the pin! Since then NOTHING its been GREAT....however a Gfex pour down into the transom sounded like a great idea!


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:36 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
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Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
Jbernier wrote:
MRL wrote:
Jaque Why do I get the feeling a tiller extention is in the making.
Mike


We are always looking into new idea - the Tramps were the first step, now we're hard at work on some other products, it just takes time, we like to only introduce something after we've gotten it all figured out!

As soon as we have something we'll make it known, just keep on the lookout~ ;)


Hi Jbernier. I see you are one of the R & D gurus at Hobie. I am wondering how your work into improving the rudder pins for the AI is progressing?...Pirate

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 8:29 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:33 pm
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Location: Coram N.Y.
I`ve been out 8 times-4 in rough weather and have not failed a pin. Yet. I`m somewhat familiar with injection molding of plastics as I worked in that field a few years. While it`s certainly possible the plastic is the wrong type or not cured properly-it is far more likely the rudders are scraping bottom in low tide or on sand bars etc.and we are just not noticing or feeling it. AND/or the softer plastic weakens over time exposed to the elements being stored outside as well. What about un-cleating the down line if you`re not sure of the waters? Or replacing the pin every other trip? Ideally-a pin that could be easily removed/installed would make this convenient.
"An ounce of prevention... is worth a pound of cure :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:38 am 
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Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 5:08 pm
Posts: 35
Location: Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii
This has already been contradicted by several people, including myself. Neither fatigue, nor shallow water can explain why several brand new pins fail minutes into a sail while in deep water. The likelihood of impacts, or even shallow water causing all of these breaks by multiple people is quite low. It also doesn't explain the inconsistent quality. I have had pins last for 20-30 outings (3-5 hours in all but extreme wind conditions) and others last for minutes. One of my quick breaks happened in under 10 knot winds.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:47 am 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Can the Hobie staff please answer the question on filling in the transom extension with epoxy.

Mahalo

Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Location: Coram N.Y.
Are you Maloha Dan Or Aloha Dan? And add a question mark when you`re asking a question damn it.

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Last edited by Aledal on Sun May 31, 2009 12:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Location: Coram N.Y.
Obviously I`ve wandered into a Hornets nest. If multiple people are reporting new pin failure minutes into sailing in deep water I am wrong and stand corrected. It is a quality control problem. The operative word being "if".

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 2:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
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Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
Aledal some owners have experienced multiple failures whilst others nil. This thread has indeed covered a multitude of opinions and suggestions which is a worthwhile read. I still firmly believe it is a quality control fault in the production of the rudder boxes not in pin design, but Hobie told us they are on the job re this problem and I was just wondering if they were getting close to a viable solution....Pirate

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 3:07 pm 
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Location: Coram N.Y.
Well then... thats good enough for me.
When was the last time you flossed you bastard?

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