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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:16 am 
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I would like some feedback on which pins are failing. We hear some pin failure stories here, but not sure that they are not referencing older pins of weaker material. The latest pin has the "D" shaped head. We also can use samples of broken pins here to assure the correct materials are being used in molding.

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Matt Miller
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Hobie Cat USA


Last edited by mmiller on Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:48 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:07 am
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Location: Punta Gorda, FL
Hi Matt,

Both of the ones my wife broke were the D head type. It's a 2008 boat. I didn't save the pieces.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:31 pm 
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Location: South Florida
Tom,

You said your wife broke 2 pins--has there been no more breakage? If not, why not?

Keith

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:50 pm 
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I can't explain it, Keith.

We had sailed the boats many times with no problems for a couple of months. We went out and it was a bit windy and choppy, but we had sailed in those conditions and worse before. She was sailing maybe a few minutes when the first pin broke. I was sailing nearby with no troubles. We replaced the pin and went back out, and the same thing happened, again in just a few minutes. Running out of daylight, we gave up for the day.

Since then we have sailed in similar conditions to that day many times, and sailed in stronger conditions on a few occasions. I am still using the original pin that came with my boat, and she has had no further trouble with pins.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:08 am 
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Location: Lakes Entrance, Aust
Tom Ray wrote:
The boat comes with an allen wrench, which would make a good poker to remove a stuck pin fragment, if one became a problem.


Which at the moment on mine lives in the aka bag on shore...

Dave

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:23 pm 
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geocacher wrote:
Tom Ray wrote:
The boat comes with an allen wrench, which would make a good poker to remove a stuck pin fragment, if one became a problem.


Which at the moment on mine lives in the aka bag on shore...

Dave


Exactly! We are trying to design a better pin that can be easily replaced at sea if it is inevitable that they must break from time to time. Trying to hold an allen key in sloppy sea conditions most likely will mean all that will happen will be that you will lose your allen key. I believe Hoby should give a priority to fixing this problem which is not insurmountable. This is not a small or isolated problem we have here and it needs to be fixed now. http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=11423
Either strenghten up the boat or re-design the pin to make it user friendly....Pirate


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:02 pm 
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Quote:
I believe Hoby should give a priority to fixing this problem which is not insurmountable. This is not a small or isolated problem we have here and it needs to be fixed now.


Pirate, while I appreciate feedback...

I don't think this is as big an issue as you are trying to make it out to be. We have Thousands of Islands sailing and only a very small percentage of failure reports, which is expected. We have a purpose in making the pins as a sort of "fuse" break point to prevent damage to other items. I can't imagine demanding that a company use a stronger fuse than designed for the equipment.

This is not something we are considering at this time. We do not suggest attempting to replace failed parts while at sea.

There has been discussion about alternate materials that are stronger, but this is a personal choice and risk of breaking the rudder assembly or transom.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Pirate,

As I mentioned before, extracting the pin is not the difficult part if one breaks. Pin parts fall away and sink, and the rudder flops around behind the boat on strings. There's nothing to remove.

The hard part, and it's not that hard, is getting the rudder lined up and getting the new pin in past the control lines. It's kind of a three handed procedure on land, and wouldn't be fun on the water. It would be useful to have some way to hold some slack in the up/down lines, like a strong spring clamp on the lines right where they enter the hull or something. Without tension on those lines, it's much easier to align the rudder and slip in the new pin.

I wouldn't attempt it on the water unless I was prepared to be in the water.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:41 pm 
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
Pirate wrote:
We are trying to design a better pin that can be easily replaced at sea if it is inevitable that they must break from time to time.

I've replaced 3 pins so far and removing them has not been a problem for me. In 2 out of three instances the rudder was hanging by the cables in the same way that Tom reported.

I personally am not athletic enough to reach the rudder while at sea (either from the deck or from the water). I therefore slowly sail to shore by steering with the paddle. Once ashore the pin is easy to replace.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:27 am 
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saipedaddlefisher wrote:
Pirate wrote:
We are trying to design a better pin that can be easily replaced at sea if it is inevitable that they must break from time to time.

I've replaced 3 pins so far and removing them has not been a problem for me. In 2 out of three instances the rudder was hanging by the cables in the same way that Tom reported.

I personally am not athletic enough to reach the rudder while at sea (either from the deck or from the water). I therefore slowly sail to shore by steering with the paddle. Once ashore the pin is easy to replace.


And what was the cause of the 3 pin failures? Was it hitting something solid or rounding up in gusts or random failures?...Pirate


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:30 am 
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
Quote:
I would appreciate a response of various owners as to whether their rudders show similar amount of lateral movement, say half and inch at the bottom,


Well Pirate,

i am coming in a bit late on the topic but for what is worth when i check my rudder in the down position (easy to check as my AI is on a trailer) it does have about 1 centremetre (less than half inch for US readers) BUT when i pull that bit harder on the down haul line (i have an 08 Hobie with the latest up/down system) and ensure no slip back through the camm cleats as can sometimes happen as the lines are fairly thin and slippery, THEN check the lateral play is next to nothing...........so try it for yourself, this extra tug also helps with upwind rudder control.

Maybe Hobie instead need to use slightly thicker spectra lines.

Cheers
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:43 am 
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Pirate wrote:
saipedaddlefisher wrote:
Pirate wrote:
We are trying to design a better pin that can be easily replaced at sea if it is inevitable that they must break from time to time.

I've replaced 3 pins so far and removing them has not been a problem for me. In 2 out of three instances the rudder was hanging by the cables in the same way that Tom reported.

I personally am not athletic enough to reach the rudder while at sea (either from the deck or from the water). I therefore slowly sail to shore by steering with the paddle. Once ashore the pin is easy to replace.


And what was the cause of the 3 pin failures? Was it hitting something solid or rounding up in gusts or random failures?...Pirate

Winds 15 Knots plus, seas around a metre, close reaching (probably with too much sail out) and broad reaching with following seas (probably trying to go too fast). Significant pressure on the rudder trying to hold course in choppy conditions, in my opinion, causes the pins to eventually bend and/or break.

Interestingly, yesterday, for the first time, I sailed on a lake where the waves didn't have long distances to build and the boat sailed like a dream in around 15 Knot North Easterlies. The pressure on the rudder was much less than that which I experience in similar wind strengths on the more exposed & rougher waters where I usually sail on Moreton Bay. Even better, I didn't get soaked from head to toe like I normally do.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:48 pm 
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Location: Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii
I have had about 5-6 pins break on me within 6 months of sailing. All were the newer D pins. It seems some pins last a long time even through rough conditions, while others break rather quickly. I don't know why the difference. I now am always carrying a single blade paddle (strapped to the original paddle storage on the side), since I can't have faith that the rudder pin won't break. The longest I've had to sail rudderless is about 5 miles. Fortunately, once you get the boat/sail in balance, you really don't need to steer with the paddle much, maybe just once every couple minutes. Coming about without a rudder is a real pain, though.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:37 pm 
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Quote:
It seems some pins last a long time even through rough conditions, while others break rather quickly.


This could be an issue of inconsistant materials if not the conditions in Hawaii which are very demanding.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
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Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
mmiller wrote:
Quote:
It seems some pins last a long time even through rough conditions, while others break rather quickly.


This could be an issue of inconsistant materials if not the conditions in Hawaii which are very demanding.


It is an issue that must be addressed Matt though you dismiss it lightly further up this thread. I have a naval architect friend who I discussed the matter with and is adament that a vessel and all its fittings should be designed to take all but the worst sea conditions. The redundant pin should only be called upon to do its work when the rudder hits something or the hold down fails and the pressure on the rudder blade and gudgeons becomes too great in a decent sea. Not when the boat rounds up because it is carrying too much sail...Pirate


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