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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:58 am 
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Location: Maui, Hawaii
If you heat the top of the old pins (with the cotter pin out) and then press it (I push the head onto cement) It will create a thicker top and can be used like the newer pins, except with a cotter pin in the bottom. It doesn't really even need the cotter pin, as the up/down lines keep it from lifting.

If you don't like the old style, I'll trade! :)

Kayaking Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:15 am 
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Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
[quote="Tupperware Trimaran"]There were indeed two AI's in this year's Texas 200. I sailed one (dubbed the Tupperware Trimaran by one of our Nacra 20-sailing buddies) equipped with the new trampolines and my partner, Andrew, sailed the other AI (without tramps).

We are preparing to post a thorough recount of the event here. We had a rudder pin failure on average every 10 hours. We learned to adjust our sailing style and be prepared for the inevitable failures. We also learned how to "feel" a pin failure coming on. The boats are 13 months old. Mine has been sailed between 400 & 500 miles in that time (including the Texas 200); my partner's far less. The yaks are now sitting at our dealer as there is a laundry list of issues that need to be addressed. The dealer has suggested that since the boats were used outside of "normal recreational conditions" they may not be covered by warranty. I am not amused. We had a couple of failures I'd attribute to manufacturing flaws before the Texas 200. First, the glue used to attach the hard rubber plugs in the ends of the akas failed in the first 90 days on both yaks. Second, the glue used to attach the roller furling drum to the mast failed on the least used of the two boats! This failure was discovered on the eve of the Texas 200. We were in a remote area and at the advice of a Hobie dealer we confered with via phone attempted to fix it with 5200. That did not work. One of our fellow participants (in fact, the proa sailor) offered some spare five minute epoxy he had on hand. We had acetone so cleaned up the 5200 and applied the epoxy at the conclusion of day 1 on the Texas 200. That did work.

I observe that Matt skirted around the issue of pin failures when he answered Tupperware's post on another thread. This surely more good evidence of a manufacturing problem. Seems like same old same old to me....Pirate

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:29 pm
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Location: Dublin, Ireland
Janey Mac Pirate, you are proving to be most unlucky with the rudder pins. I use the A1 on the sea and have suffered one failure, which looked like fatigue, in 13 months. I wonder if you're on to something when you mention sailing style?

In any event, the number of failures you have experienced is clearly unacceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:00 pm 
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Location: Calga NSW, Australia
Upyaboya wrote:
I use the A1 on the sea and have suffered one failure, which looked like fatigue, in 13 months. I wonder if you're on to something when you mention sailing style?

Hey Upyaboya, I thought the Black 'n Tans must have got you. I don't know if it's sailing style or dumb luck with these pin failures. Stephanie obviously thinks it's sailing style to some extent. I guess if you are having to put a lot of pressure on the rudder to steer the boat, it might be a signal that it would be more productive to depower the sail somewhat, either by easing the sheet or furling.

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:43 pm 
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Pirate wrote:
I observe that Matt skirted around the issue of pin failures when he answered Tupperware's post on another thread. This surely more good evidence of a manufacturing problem.


Note that they were sailing in 15-25 knots and breaking / following seas. Fully loaded with gear. 13 months old and lots of miles on them. I'm not surprised they had some failures. This is HEAVY use.

Yes, as I have acknowledged many times before in this thread. We believe we experienced a production problem and perhaps a materials problem. Not a "skirting" of the issue. Any requested pin has been provided under warranty.

We are well along the course for an improved pin manufacturing. Hold your breath just a bit longer.

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:36 pm 
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Location: Dublin, Ireland
Hey Chrisj, good to hear from you ..........and as the groom said to the Hotel manager when asked if he'd be requiring the bridal suite, not at all, sure I'll hold on by the ears! I'm hanging on but the only green shoots I can see are weeds! So in order to do my bit to stop the country sinking, I've not been on the water lately and boy do I miss it!

I still love the A1 to bits and am pleased that despite lots of challenging weather, I've had one rudder pin breakage and an ama collapse when I hit a submarine. Mightily tempted to get myself a set of trampolines and definitely getting into the fishing.

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:00 pm 
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I have been following this thread with some interest. I've had my AI since December of 2006 and I sail it a lot. I sail off the Florida coast. I like surfing into the inlets when the surfs up. I like sailing in big wind and big water. I love big rollers. I've capsized twice. Not little rollovers from getting caught sideways in the surf, but brutal big water end over end affairs. I let anyone on the beach who wants to try my boat out, take it out. In 15 minutes you can have have someone sailing who never thought it possible. You should see their faces.

All that to say this. My boat gets a lot of use and some abuse by a lot of people. And no, I have never broken a rudder pin. I broke the rudder once, but that was because I modified it back before Hobie developed the sailing rudder. They sent me a new one, free. I've had all sorts of things work loose, I tighten them up and go on. Is the boat perfect, of course not. It's a work in progress that makes a lot of compromises to do so many things well. But if you can find a better product from a more responsive company represented by someone with the quality of Matt Miller, call me. I'll buy two.

The AI, Hobie, Matt Miller. Honestly, if those three can't please you, it might be you. Just my 2 cents worth.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:19 pm 
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I tried to remove the pin on dry land, and it was impossible. I can't imagine trying to do it out on the water.

So I put the tiniest screw eye in the rudder pin. I didn't have to drill, it just screwed right in. Then I operated the rudder in every mode, left, right, up, down, etc. It clears all the lines just fine, and it is easy to remove with my small gerber multitool.

I have several spare pins, I am going to modify a few and leave a few stock. Since hobie had a bad run of pins its hard to tell which are hollow and which aren't.

Anyway I had seen your post about this somewhere, which was the exact idea I had.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:32 pm 
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Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
drgatsea wrote:
I have been following this thread with some interest. I've had my AI since December of 2006 and I sail it a lot. I sail off the Florida coast. I like surfing into the inlets when the surfs up. I like sailing in big wind and big water. I love big rollers. I've capsized twice. Not little rollovers from getting caught sideways in the surf, but brutal big water end over end affairs. I let anyone on the beach who wants to try my boat out, take it out. In 15 minutes you can have have someone sailing who never thought it possible. You should see their faces.

All that to say this. My boat gets a lot of use and some abuse by a lot of people. And no, I have never broken a rudder pin. I broke the rudder once, but that was because I modified it back before Hobie developed the sailing rudder. They sent me a new one, free. I've had all sorts of things work loose, I tighten them up and go on. Is the boat perfect, of course not. It's a work in progress that makes a lot of compromises to do so many things well. But if you can find a better product from a more responsive company represented by someone with the quality of Matt Miller, call me. I'll buy two.

The AI, Hobie, Matt Miller. Honestly, if those three can't please you, it might be you. Just my 2 cents worth.


1. You have strenghened my argument drgatsea. I say some boats are fine, some are breaking pins regularly. I say it is not the pin, but the rudder set-up for some boats and that is why I truly believe that the rudder pin holes should be bushed so they are all of uniform standard and not allowing the system to cut through the pin in as little as 10 hours. When I sleeved mine the potential problem seems to have vaporised but I am urging Hobie to develop a more durable system. Again I say I could not speak any more highly of the AI as a multi-purpose fun kayak and sailboat.

2. I re-iterate I really like the AI and used it as late as yesterday even in the depths of winter here. I respect both Matt and Hobie who are very good at their jobs and fair to clients. I just believe this is an issue that needs attention....Pirate

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:38 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2361
Location: Escondido
First, congratulations to Tupperware and her partner for their excellent performance this grueling event! As I recall, about 40% of the boats failed to finish due to broken masts, rudders and capsizes. This is a real testament to the excellent seamanship of these two sailors as well as their AI's.

Sailing in short, steep following seas is grueling on rudders. High speeds at times along with huge hydrodynamic forces and almost constant broach control is hard on crew and equipment and demands skill and attentiveness.

Pin failures vs. broken rudders? Broken pin and you're still in the race; broken rudder and you're done. Reconlon, who has had multiple experiences with both, seems to think the current pins are doing their job. In the Texas 200, Tupperware was obviously well prepared with spare pins, the know how to replace them as necessary, and the wisdom to resist the potential of breaking her rudder by bypassing this safety link. I'd be interested in hearing her own opinion on whether her pin failure rate was good or bad considering the conditions and other boat failures -- she was the one at the tiller.

"Surely good evidence of a manufacturing problem" as Pirate says, or engineering brilliance? Having personally never experienced or seen a rudder pin failure since first sailing the AI in 2006, I'm not personally qualified to see this as a problem. That doesn't mean I haven't practiced steering with the paddle!

I'm looking forward to reading Tuperware's account and evaluation of the race! 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:10 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Roadrunner

I haven't heard of any rudder being broken. Unless it hit something and the housing had a metal pin I don't see it getting busted up.I have seen many posts on pins failing but no rudder break posts.

Basically (and I'll defer to Matt) the positive design of the pin is for it to fail in the event there is some sort of collision. The negative part of the pin design is that it will fail under a heavy rudder strain, particularly on a close haul in heavy weather..

I replaced my pin with a metal one.

I have had no problems with the rudder in heavy conditions. But I put myself at risk in the event I hit something. That's the risk I take so I don't have to change pins at sea (done it enough to not want to do it again). IIRC Matt said sailors had a similar problem with catamarans also, and ended up replacing pins that would not break in a collision.

Aloha

Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:09 am 
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Location: Maui, Hawaii
Roadrunner, a minor correction. We are using old test pins from Hobie that are stronger than the production pins (either by design or because of manufacturing "problems"). With that said, we had two AI's fail at the transom using these pins (one repaired, one replaced).

From time to time we try the production pins, but they fail on us also, so we continue to go back to the "test" pins. We have added reinforcement to the transom area of all our boats. No additional wear or problems to report, and we have NEVER broken a test pin. (Burt, we have never hit anything with our rudders, choosing to raise them and paddle in to land).

I'm hoping the pins Hobie's working on will do the trick for us all, as it's the last non-trivial problem the AI seems to have. What a great boat we all have! And what a great company Hobie is. (What other company would put up with us!) :)

Kayaking Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:08 pm 
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Have had my AI over a year now and had my first pin break and thank god it did. Was loading the kayak on the rack and lost my grip and had it slide back onto the rudder. Only damage was the $3.50 pin and some cosmetic scrapes on the rudder. Could have been much worse if the pin was stronger.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:20 am 
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Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
kadac00 wrote:
Have had my AI over a year now and had my first pin break and thank god it did. Was loading the kayak on the rack and lost my grip and had it slide back onto the rudder. Only damage was the $3.50 pin and some cosmetic scrapes on the rudder. Could have been much worse if the pin was stronger.

Great to hear your boat was not damaged kadac00....Pirate

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Pin design
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:57 am
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Location: Phuket, Thailand
Upyaboya wrote:
Janey Mac Pirate, you are proving to be most unlucky with the rudder pins. I use the A1 on the sea and have suffered one failure, which looked like fatigue, in 13 months. I wonder if you're on to something when you mention sailing style?

In any event, the number of failures you have experienced is clearly unacceptable.


From what am led to believe Pirate hasnt had a rudder pin failure yet, but maybe I am wrong! (I'm sure he will correct me if thats the case) I swapped to a brass pin 18 months ago after going thru a few of the plastic ones, one time I bust the rudder housing but it was awfully windy that day, since then no probs but I am careful to reef if the wind picks up. Sounds like Hobie are on the case, maybe we could leave them alone on this one...give them some time?


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