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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:51 pm 
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Again... the pins are designed to fail when the boat impacts the beach, or is heavily stressed to the point that another part could fail if loaded higher than designed to handle. In most cases these is not failing. Certainly loads are exceeding the design of the product... this is not a naval vessel, it is a recreational product and does have limits.

Pin replacement orders in 2008 (many could be stocking orders) of the twist-n-stow rudders sold, are at a percentage of failure that is very small.

If we can determine that there is a materials issue or these are not as strong as intended... certainly we will deal with it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:41 pm 
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Location: Seal Beach California
Matt,
Thanks much for your continued support of the product. Hearing that these are not naval vessels I take it that Hobie does not endorse the addition of missles or 16 inch guns to the AI


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:44 pm 
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Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
FYI Naval Architects design more naval shipsand have an extensive and intensive knowledge of all things floating. Thanks Matt for your commitment to follow up re the pin built consistancy. I have just been out playing with my boat and still feel and intelligent look at the pins could result in their improvement with very little added expense...Pirate


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:44 am 
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MRL wrote:
Hearing that these are not naval vessels I take it that Hobie does not endorse the addition of missles or 16 inch guns to the AI


Missles maybe...

Image

http://www.west.net/~lpm/hobie/archives/v1-i2/humor.shtml

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Yes, no recoil now I understand


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Might be worthwhile to have a close look at the rudder pin on that vessel Matt as it may have been designed by a naval architect...LOL..Pirate


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:32 pm 
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Actually, the cats have several options in pins.

Nylon (fails under low stress) to prevent damage to the transom. Typically caused by surf launching.

Aluminum High strength, light but wears in the stainless gudgeons.

Stainless Very high strength and low wear, but certaint death to the transom if you back the boat over the rudders in surf.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:09 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
Actually, the cats have several options in pins.

Nylon (fails under low stress) to prevent damage to the transom. Typically caused by surf launching.

Aluminum High strength, light but wears in the stainless gudgeons.

Stainless Very high strength and low wear, but certaint death to the transom if you back the boat over the rudders in surf.


Do you believe in our application with the AIs that the aluminium pin would fail as required in extreme stress situations prior to the hull Matt?..Pirate


Last edited by Pirate on Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:34 am 
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At the risk of being overbearing, I believe, when Matt says "Aluminum...wears in the stainless gudgeons," we are again talking about galvanic corrosion. In this case it would probably become catastropic in short order.

Keith

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Hi All,

I for one think the debate on the rudder pins has about run its course. If I was a prospective AI buyer looking at this thread I would end up of the opinion that it is a far bigger issue than what it actually is.

I've not broken one yet. My boats have been sailed by my daughter and other rellys over the past few weeks and despite warning them they've been beached with the rudder cleated and I've sailed them both in conditions that left me experiencing a fair bit of weather helm which I would think combined with the choppy lake would have the rudder slapping around a bit. I'd love to have eyes in the back of my head as it's hard to take a look otherwise.

I'm not going to worry about it until I've established there's a problem. I've got a few spares and I'm prepared to replace them if necessary.

I've also done a bit of research on weather helm & lee helm to jog my fading sailing memory and I've pretty much worked out steering the boat without the rudder down in case I need to.

As for the slop in the rudder, if it's needed to get the twist & stow mechanism to work I can wear that. I found once I tightened up the left & right lines I had a much more responsive rudder and less issues that I thought may have been movement to deal with.

I'll have to finish here. The pager's gone off. More to come later maybe.
:D
Dave

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:45 pm 
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I'm in Geocacher's corner on this. I worry about pins breaking when I'm in front of the computer reading about it. When I am on the water, I never think of it--I've never broken a pin in a year's use. There have been some good discussions, and it is clear there are multiple causes of pin failure. If you have not broken one in a year's use, you and your boat are apparently at little risk of breaking one. When and if I break a pin, I am confident I can get the boat back to shore and will put a new pin in there or at home. I carry several spares.

Keith
(I still don't want a pin to fail as I write this, but I won't worry about it on the water for 4-days next week!)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:03 pm 
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Location: Ettalong Beach, Central Coast, Australia
Well today it happened. The pin broke. And I did not have any pliers with me, so I came home. The wind was strong, it was one of the best rides I have had, maybe 15 to 20 kts with rough chop.

But when it actually broke was a complete surprise, I had the sail well furled, and was not in the process of hitting any waves and was not using much trim on the rudder, but suddenly I turned into the wind, and had to use the paddle to get back on course, which puzzled me, until I turned round to see the rudder up in the air. The I had to really furl the sail, so I could use the paddle to steer. And I limped home.

Maybe I hit something in the water, or maybe it just broke. My AI is 10 months old.

Geoff.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:10 am 
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Location: Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii
My first pin lasted for perhaps 25 outings of 4 or more hours each in all conditions (including very rough) over about a 6 month period. I never even realized breaking a pin was a worry. (In the 5 years or so I spent in EXTREME Hobie Catting on 14's, 16's, and 18's, I never broke a pin, so never considered it.) The next two pins only lasted two days in very modest conditions. My current pin has been in for quite a while. To those of you who haven't broken a pin even in rough conditions, I am very happy for you. Hopefully, you don't ever experience a run of pins that are breaking for no apparent reason. While one can claim that the pins are breaking under stress, thus saving the hull, clearly some have put great stress on pins (as have I) without any breakage. And, at other unlucky times, some pins (even brand new ones) have failed under very modest stress. With some right combination of equipment the pin lasts a long time, and the owner develops a sense of confidence as I had with my first pin. But, once one starts going through some rapid pin failures as I have, one loses that confidence and has to develop back up strategies. It's probably wise to have been using those from the beginning. Breaking a pin is not costly. It is not a REAL safety factor. But, it is EXTREMELY annoying and frustrating when it happens and ruins what was supposed to be a great day of sailing. Or worse, when it happens 4-5 miles from home and it takes you 3 times as long to make it back and it starts getting cold and dark.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:21 am 
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There is plenty here Matt to demonstrate lack of consistancy with pin strengths being manufactured for Hobie by whoever/wherever. Please have the factory closely scrutinise this subject thoroughly with the view to providing a pin that will last a season without failing of its own will. It really should not happen....Pirate


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:29 am 
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Location: Gippsland Lakes Victoria Australia
k-bay cruiser wrote:
My first pin lasted for perhaps 25 outings of 4 or more hours each in all conditions (including very rough) over about a 6 month period. I never even realized breaking a pin was a worry. (In the 5 years or so I spent in EXTREME Hobie Catting on 14's, 16's, and 18's, I never broke a pin, so never considered it.) The next two pins only lasted two days in very modest conditions. My current pin has been in for quite a while. To those of you who haven't broken a pin even in rough conditions, I am very happy for you. Hopefully, you don't ever experience a run of pins that are breaking for no apparent reason. While one can claim that the pins are breaking under stress, thus saving the hull, clearly some have put great stress on pins (as have I) without any breakage. And, at other unlucky times, some pins (even brand new ones) have failed under very modest stress. With some right combination of equipment the pin lasts a long time, and the owner develops a sense of confidence as I had with my first pin. But, once one starts going through some rapid pin failures as I have, one loses that confidence and has to develop back up strategies. It's probably wise to have been using those from the beginning. Breaking a pin is not costly. It is not a REAL safety factor. But, it is EXTREMELY annoying and frustrating when it happens and ruins what was supposed to be a great day of sailing. Or worse, when it happens 4-5 miles from home and it takes you 3 times as long to make it back and it starts getting cold and dark.

Hmm - I hear the voice of experience coming out here :roll:
Whilst you haven't drawn any conclusions as to why you suddenly experienced a run of rapid pin failures, it makes me wonder whether there isn't a quality control issue - not to mention the current design issue which may make on-sea replacement extremely difficult. :roll:
Mickey


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