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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:03 pm 
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i have gone through 3 pins so far the first went in 35 knot conditions so no surprise there...however the other 2 broke in rather benign conditions and were not under real stress at the time...breaking pins when far offshore is a PITA and i will now be trying various methods of changing them whilst on the water...since using the paddle to steer crates too much drag especially in light conditions

i will be looking at reinforcing the transom with some off cuts i have so that this area is not so exposed to breaking.

at this current rate of breakages i can see myself going through 15 - 20 pins a year


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:22 pm 
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Location: Lakes Entrance, Aust
Measuring shear forces required to break the pins would not be hard. There must be a known force required to damage the boat - measuring that would not be hard either but I'm not volunteering my hull as a guinea pig. The fact that they've designed in a "fuse" to protect it suggests they know or have a fair idea of the breaking tolerance of the transom. It's just a question of whether the "fuse" is the right size for the job.

I used to work in labs at Holden doing this sort of stuff on automotive components and it's not difficult.

You could test 50-100 pins and establish if there was a material problem across batches or within a batch.

Likewise you could determine if you have the material right to get a failure rate just under that required to save the hull or whether the margin of safety is so far under that tolerance that it is causing nuisance failures.

You could also strain guage a pin and put it in the transom on a boat and measure on a data logger the strain on a pin in a variety of sailing conditions. This would give you a profile that you could use to cycle test pins to simulate real conditions in a lab to work out if it is a one off shear load that is the problem or fatigue over time.

You don't use a 10 amp fuse on a circuit that routinely runs at 9.8 amps - you will have nuisance failures and get sick of replacing fuses. You use a 15 amp fuse which will still protect the circuit from a 20 amp shortcircuit but won't fail unneccessarily.

Same goes here.

Someone knows what the tolerance on the hull is as they've designed in a safety mechanism. Therefore someone knows what the pins should shear at.

Hobie are watching this thread. They may not be all that happy that Pirate is making a lot of noise about something that hasn't happened to him yet. That doesn't say that he's not entitled to be concerned about something that he considers a risk. They can't discount that some people on here are complaining about a lot of failures while the boat is being used within it's design tolerance.

At this stage as a new owner I'm still happy that they've designed something in to protect my new toy from serious damage. I'm happy to change a few pins if I need to as opposed to dealing with a broken transom. If Hobie come up with a better alternative, based on my recent experience with them and their fantastic service, I'm sure they'll come to the party to help out those who have had issues.

It's easy in a forum to come over the wrong way, or to be misinterpreted. Maybe people posting need to be mindful of the way they come across. Maybe this could turn into a simple log of events with a set range of criteria to be addressed.

I would suggest something like:

Date:
Hull No.
Conditions
Est wind speed:
Lake/Ocean?:
Chop/Swell/Surf:
Side on picture of failed pin
(or measurement from head of pin to failure point):
Close up picture of cross section of failed pin (show air bubbles or deformity in moulding:

Pin mailed to Hobie - Yes/No:

Any other fields that others or Hobie (Matt) may wish to see added?

Then we can turn this thread into something positive and usefull instead of something negative which is the way I perceive it at the moment.

Happy sailing,

Dave

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A Hobie Sport and 2 Hobie Adventure Island's - Papaya & Hibiscus - I couldn't make up my mind so like I usually end up doing with lures I bought both and hid the credit card statement :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:39 pm 
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Location: Ettalong Beach, Central Coast, Australia
Hi Dave,

I think you have a good idea, depending on whether Matt feels this information would be useful. My broken rudder pin has a decided needle sized hole ( 1mm dia) that extends for about a half inch, exactly in the middle of the section. Others have mentioned slackness, but I had to tap in the replacement pin the last inch or so using a screwdriver and a pair of pliers as the hammer, I could not press it home by hand. No slack there. Which would make it very hard done on the water, especially if the wind is howling.

I suspect if Hobie wanted these broken pins, a plan might be to buy some more at the same time as sending the old one in.

I was giving serious consideration to trying to design a hydrofoil, but it seems that would certainly advance the sailing stresses on the rudder, so for now I will abandon that idea.

Geoff.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 11:23 pm
Posts: 14
Location: NSW Australia
Guys,

In most places around the world, Hobie has warranty procedures in place to handle such information and claims.

In Australia, the South Pacific, Oceania and SE Asia, our dealers access to an on-line system in which all claims are handled and reviewed. In most cases within 12 hours once filled in.

The info is gathered and in most cases when required we ask for any problem parts to be returned for material inspection or material analyses or both.

There is no need for another system to be put into place in my view. If things are reported in this fashion we can collectively look at things on global bases such as wind, wave and temperatures. The other advantage is that the local dealer(s) can also provide additional information.

Hobie Aus and Hobie USA are in “dailyâ€


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:08 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
Posts: 863
Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
Thanks Steve. Your Company's reputation and the manner in which you so quickly and efficiently solved that problem with David from Lakes Entrance recently leaves me in no doubt that I will be dealt with fairly and efficiently in the event of any future claim that may arise. That also applies to your dealer Peter Manley from Canberra who I have the greatest admiration for...Pirate


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:32 am 
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Location: Gippsland Lakes Victoria Australia
Pirate wrote:
Thanks Steve. Your Company's reputation and the manner in which you so quickly and efficiently solved that problem with David from Lakes Entrance recently leaves me in no doubt that I will be dealt with fairly and efficiently in the event of any future claim that may arise. That also applies to your dealer Peter Manley from Canberra who I have the greatest admiration for...Pirate

I second that :!: :)
Mickey


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:59 am 
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Location: Punta Gorda, FL
I was about done with this thread, but great post, geocacher Dave!

Steve, reporting pin failures under the warranty system seems a good idea, but one problem. Pin failure is expected, and is not a warranty issue. Hobie didn't replace my wife's broken pins under warranty because I didn't report it to the owners of our dealership as a warranty issue. When I had customers come in for pins a couple of weeks ago, they didn't report the failures as a warranty issue, and fully expected to pay for their new pins.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:29 am 
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Location: Lakes Entrance, Aust
The other reason I made the suggestion I did was that while it is being dealt with by Hobie - which I commend and have no issue with - it is hidden from users.

A log here would possibly indicate to those concerned posting on here how low/high the failure frequency is either reassuring them that they need not worry as compared to the number of AI's out there the frequency is quite low, or alternatively that it is high enough to be concerned about.

I wasn't suggesting reinventing the wheel. Just trying to give this thread some perspective and turn negative into positive.

Thanks for taking the time to respond Steve,

Dave

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A Hobie Sport and 2 Hobie Adventure Island's - Papaya & Hibiscus - I couldn't make up my mind so like I usually end up doing with lures I bought both and hid the credit card statement :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:12 am 
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Location: Punta Gorda, FL
Geoff wrote:
Hi Dave,

I think you have a good idea, depending on whether Matt feels this information would be useful. My broken rudder pin has a decided needle sized hole ( 1mm dia) that extends for about a half inch, exactly in the middle of the section.


Are the pins supposed to be solid, or are they supposed to have a hollow core? The broken ones on my wife's boat also had a needle sized void running up the center of the pin.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:28 am 
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Location: Oceanside, California
We need to see these failed pins if possible. That has been my suspicion... has to be inconsistent material if they are newest style and material, but failing too easily. I will certainly forward the "hollow core" information on to our engineers. Thanks for that!

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:48 pm 
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Location: Pensacola, Fl.
Astro wrote:
i have gone through 3 pins so far the first went in 35 knot conditions so no surprise there...however the other 2 broke in rather benign conditions and were not under real stress at the time...


This does not make any sense at all. Why would pins just break when hardly under any stress at all. I can understand breaking a pin if your rudder hits something, like the ground, but just popping one in calm water? How on earth is that possible?

Ron Patterson


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:49 pm 
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Location: Punta Gorda, FL
Sorry, Matt, I'm pretty sure they're gone. I just took a look around in likely places, but I'm pretty sure they were tossed out. If any more break, I'll save them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:55 pm 
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Location: Punta Gorda, FL
Darwinian wrote:
I can understand breaking a pin if your rudder hits something, like the ground, but just popping one in calm water? How on earth is that possible?

Ron Patterson


Ron, on one of the previous threads, I hypothesized that the pins were not actually shearing from side load, but were twisting off due to all the moving parts binding against the pin, leaving the pin as the only "moving" part in the hinge, so it got twisted off. That's how at least one of my wife's pins came out looking, anyway...

I also think some of these pins that have broken, possibly including hers, had been previously weakened. Possibilities include grounding, dragging the rudder on boat ramps when pulling onto the trailer, and maybe even vigorous steering. I also have observed that the Twist n Stow system sometimes slaps the rudder up onto the deck pretty hard, which has got to be a jarring blow to the pin.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 5:17 pm
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Location: Ettalong Beach, Central Coast, Australia
mmiller wrote:
We need to see these failed pins if possible. That has been my suspicion... has to be inconsistent material if they are newest style and material, but failing too easily. I will certainly forward the "hollow core" information on to our engineers. Thanks for that!


I will mail it to you. Although my boat is only 10 months old, this pin, and the spare did not have the "D" head shape.

Geoff.


Last edited by Geoff on Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Location: Lakes Entrance, Aust
I haven't looked back through the recent posts to see which one it was but someone mentioned having to put a pin in which was very tight. Even so tight as to be unable to be pushed in by hand.

It's unlikely that a pin put in like this would rotate in the hole, so any movement would have an abrasive effect on the pin over time. It would also stand that under sailing load any binding between the mechanism under load and turning the rudder, weather helm etc would transfer a twisting load onto the pin in alternate directions.

As we all know the best way to break plastic rod is to twist it back and forth, as if it has any flex in it it will bend rather than break if you just bend it to snap it.

There should be no real bending load on the pins, just shear forces and twisting if it sticks.

Dave

_________________
A Hobie Sport and 2 Hobie Adventure Island's - Papaya & Hibiscus - I couldn't make up my mind so like I usually end up doing with lures I bought both and hid the credit card statement :)


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