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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:13 am 
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Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
Have an Adventure (not an Island).

Center (and aft) 8" hatch is "leaking" every time I open it. Just a little, about half a cup or less.
This is very annoying. Has anyone found a good solution for this?
Yes, I know that I have to clean & grease the sealing often but this water stands above the sealing until I open the hatch.

I think all (my) hatches are quite water proof if not tampered with.
But as soon as I open a T&S hatch...
This "leakage" is so irritating!

The whole design is way to sensitive to sand and I have to dismantle it completely to clean proper. Even the twist function is effected. How often should I do this?
The seal is twisted and will twist again immediately after correction. This is resulting in the fact that the hatch is needed to press down by hand for a proper closing.

So I can see 3 problems with this design.
Can I do something about it?

Thomas Freye

Maybe this should be in "Open Forum - Kayaking", but I don't know how to move it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:43 am 
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The seal is designed to twist, but lubrication and keeping it clean are very important. There is no way to stop the little bit of water that collects on top from dropping in when you open it... unless you clear that off first somehow.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:25 pm 
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Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
Thanks for your answer Matt!

And you are right, with this design you need to keep all details on the hatch mechanism clean. Because it is to sensitive to sand.

And if I have to press the hatch down by hand, it is time to lubricate the sealing (to often in my opinion).

And if I get water inside every time I open the hatch, I think it is a flaw in the design. It is NOT possible to clear that water off, because that water is located just above the sealing and out of reach.

These are the 3 flaws I see with this design.

I am not sure what to do about it, but something will be done. If I even partly solve anything, I will be happier.

best regards
thomas


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:08 pm 
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No hatch will keep every bit of water out. These work FAR better than hatches we use to source through Viking. I have asked for a mod in the past to help prohibit water and sand from collecting on top of the o-ring.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:41 pm 
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Posts: 1900
Location: South Florida
Thomas,

Your complaints are all legitimate. On the AI and the center hatch of the TI, the flat, horizontal disposition of the T&S hatches makes it certain they will leak, sometimes a little, and, sometimes a lot depending on your weight/weight distribution and the condition of the hatch seal. It is not uncommon, for people doing multiday trips, to have 1-3 gal of water in their hull after a day sailing. I think it is largely coming throught the T&S hatches. To say that these are better than previous Hobie hatches is pretty lame.

On the TI, Hobie has slanted the back T&S. That is a plus.

I'm afraid nothing will be done, because (1) Hobie likes the design, and (2) apparently, not enough people are complaining about it.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:33 pm 
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Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
Matt.
"No hatch will keep every bit of water out." That is not right. There are lots of hatches that are absolut watertight. But the Hobie design with the hinge and twist mechanism is superior. Very nice and convenient to operate. IF THERE WERE NO FLAWS. So design is good but not quite ready and perfected. By the way, the twist mechanism is worse to clean than the sealing. If you don't, it will be very hard to operate and probably be worn out.

Keith.
"1-3 gal of water in their hull after a day sailing" Maybe sailing the Island is putting larger forces to the hull (bigger sail to) so the movement of the hull makes the hatches leak more on the Island. And I think the amas & akas makes the movements worse. But that much water in the hull can't be acceptable. The hatch design must be better and cope with hull movements.

"not enough people are complaining about it"
Well, we better start complaining or do something else about it then. I can live with condens water and the very small amounts that leaks trough rudder up/down lines. Did you know that the steering lines probably don't leak at all? They now (my Adventure is a 2010) have very small o-rings inside the tubes. I don't know about the up/down lines, but they not so exposed for water as the steering lines.

BR
thomas


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:37 am 
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Location: Victoria, Australia
I am not sure what you are complaining about in regard to the twist mechanism, I have never had to clean/service mine and have probably only sprayed it with Inox a dozen times in the 3 years I have had it and it is used very regularly (well used to be at least).

As for the seals, yes they do leak and need cleaning/lubrication but in all honesty any seal that is regularly used in wet conditions will need the same treatment, specially salty conditions, if it's expected to work properly. As for the sand, anywhere there is lubrication and sand, expect a sticky grinding mess, lubrication by nature is sticky, that's how it stays there and lubricates and anything sticky will hold grit of any kind, only way to fix that is by regular cleaning, do not lubricate or do not take it where there is grit (later is not an option for me).

One thing I will agree with is the flat recessed design is poor, with the lack of overhang around the edge, that in it self would help direct water "over" the edge's and a slight curve to force run off would work a lot better I believe. I have seen on a couple of fishing forums where the owners either ground a gutter with a dremel or small angle grinder, around the top exiting the surface near the hinge or by welding a rib around the edge, another guy had a cutting board for bait Velcro on top of the hatch and commented how it helped keep water from entering his center hatch when opening it. Hearing this lay's merit I think to having an overhang around the edge rather than a level recessed lid where the water has to run off into the joint.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:32 am 
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Location: South Florida
On multiday AI camping trips, I've found the twist mechanism gets very "sticky" and hard to twist shut. Sand, dirt, fish scales, whatever--it needs daily maintenance.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:17 pm 
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Is it the actual mechanism or is it because of the hatch seal, when mine feels stiff its always because the seal is gripping and will not seat properly, not the twist mechanism itself. Once the seal is cleaned and lubricated all is good again.

PS if you are out on the water and it starts sticking, a bit of sunscreen on the seal will help :wink: .


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:28 am 
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Hi Elm,

I've been out in the Rockies for the past 4 mo and my last AI-camping trip was back in March, so I'm a bit rusty on this stuff. However, the problem w/ the twist mechanism is not a messy hatch seal. It is in the twist mechanism.

I will be back in S FL in a week and will begin AI-camping before long. May have more input then, if this is still a topic.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:57 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
If the seal is twisted, it can be a problem. You can watch for that.

I found that a sponge, wet with 303, or WD or Lithium grease works very well for wiping the sand out of the tiny gasket grooves and for clearing the hatch seat.

Just about any lube is going to attract sand and dirt, so you have to keep at it.

Daily maintenance - amen.

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"THE WIND IS YOUR FRIEND,.."


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:58 am 
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Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
To be more specific about the hatch sealing, I think that is minor problem with the cleaning and lubricating. It's easy to perform but in my opinion needed to often.

When it comes to cleaning the twist mechanism it's not so funny anymore. You have to be very gentle when you dismantle the mechanism because it's not really designed to take a part on a regular basis. But when you get sand (or orther dirt stuff) in the twist mechanism, it will be very hard to operate and probably be worn down quickly. The design is to sensitive to sand. In my opinion, this cleaning had to be done to often.

Now for the "leakage" that occurs every time you open the center hatch, that is just very annoying and I will do something about that. That is a flaw in the design.

The real issue is what Keith said about 1-3 gallons of water inside hull. That is a non acceptable leakage that I don't have in my Adventure but maybe others have.
And maybe it's more common i Island versions. If that water is coming from leaking T&S hatches I think Hobie should examine it.

As it is quite posible to construct water thight hatches, it is also a fair wish, that we can have them in our Hobie kayaks.

best regards
thomas


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:20 pm 
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Location: Saint Johns, Florida
I had 2 AI's then sold one when I bought my TI. I have had no problems with the hatches at all and have never done a lick of maintenance to them. I normally launch from a concrete or paved boat ramp from a trailer but have pulled a shore on sandy beaches numerous times.

After a day of sailing the AI might have a couple of ounces of water and the TI a cup or 2. I'd be really concerned with my boats if I was pumping a gallon or 2 of water out of them after I went sailing.

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Jerry D.
St. Johns, Florida
2010 TI
2008 AI


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:59 pm 
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Thomas, as Jerry suggests, your boat is leaking somewhere else. It is virtually impossible to take in 3 gallons of water through the 2 Hobie T&S hatches alone.

You should perform a leak test on your hull and be on the watch for other source of infiltration.

Is your aft riding very low in the water, in the Kayak only mode?

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"THE WIND IS YOUR FRIEND,.."


Last edited by NOHUHU on Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:00 pm 
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Location: Sollentuna, Sweden, Europe
Jerry.
"I'd be really concerned with my boats if I was pumping a gallon or 2 of water out of them after I went sailing"

So you don't think this is acceptable?

"After a day of sailing the AI might have a couple of ounces of water and the TI a cup or 2."

And this is?

Do you know where this water come from or if you know that it's coming from T&S hatches, you think it's OK?
With a hatch that is obviously leaking?

Well I know that I make uncomfortable questions, sorry for that, but I am really interested in creative solutions for the flaws in the design of T&S hatches. If Hobie can't help us, I know that in this forum there are lots of intelligent people with brilliant ideas.

Does anyone succeeded to fix anything with the T&S problems? Or maybe we are so few with these problems that it is no problem.

best regards
thomas


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