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TI FWD XBAR FAILURE
http://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=33638
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Author:  larryhts [ Wed May 16, 2012 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

Everyone, Thanks for all your research on this failure. As you can see from the picture mine has the cracks, and I thought it was from the mast cup breaking loose but maybe the cracks were there before that? My hull that Hobie replaced was:
HCC is the Manufacturing Company (Hobie Cat Company)
P............ Model (Tandem Island)
0074........ Serial Number (0074)
D........... Month of Manufacture (April)
0............ Year of Manufacture (2010)
10........... Model Year (2010)
Again Thanks to all for your input on this. I feel much safer with the new XBAR type and will put it on tomorrow, and take the old one back to Andy to see about the warranty claim.

Image

Author:  sun E sailor [ Thu May 17, 2012 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

I agree with Brendan and fusioneng. Hopefully this problem is limited to just a few units. Hobie has always done the right thing as evidenced this time by their redesigning and improving the new crossbar assembly.

Before the last few days of this posts development, if you had the old style crossbar it was a "wait and see attitude" with too many variables based on the age of your boat, how often you went out, under what sailing conditions, production runs, and improved welding techniques that could probably not be recognized by most people as looking any different from the previous ones.

Now we at least know what to look for and how to identify it. The average person can easily just look at the weld to see if there's a thin grey line developing, indicating the probability of a crack, then take it to their dealer for closer examination or replacement.

My intentions were always based on the desire for all of us to be as safe as possible on the water and proactive through these continuing discussions.

Author:  mmiller [ Thu May 17, 2012 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

bosab wrote:
AARGGH,
You made me look!
Port side underneath. Small crack starting. Matt?


Cracks or failures should be reported to your dealer. They can contact our warranty department via claim or other for review.

Author:  mmiller [ Thu May 17, 2012 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

Thinking about this again...

The weld style is not the indication of a potential problem. The stiffness of the block connection (below the beam) and the tension of the crossbar connection fittings are what make a beam loose and cause excessive movement... causing stress on the welds.

The beam should not be shifting back and forth under sail. That causes excessive stress on the weld.

Check the crossbar fasteners to the block (see image above... block / spacer below the cracked weld). Check the fastener tightness at the outer ends of the crossbars.

I believe that the beam movement is a contributing factor here.

Author:  sun E sailor [ Thu May 17, 2012 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

larryhts,

Glad to hear you got your new crossbar. Mine came today and I'm just waiting to hear from Brendan regarding a question I now have about weather or not we should reassemble everything using blue loc-tite on all the bolts?

Good luck, and I'm glad everything worked out for the best.

Happy sailing :)

Author:  sun E sailor [ Thu May 17, 2012 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

Just heard from Brendan. Looks like using the blue loc-tite in reassembly is the order of business. I hope to be on the water this weekend.
Thanks again Hobie :).

Author:  larryhts [ Thu May 17, 2012 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

Thanks sun E sailor, I just put the new one on and I didn't use the loctight, I had some right there on the bench and I thought about it but I will just make it part of my maintenance checks. Hope you get your on in time for the weekend. See you on the water....Larry

Author:  kayakman7 [ Thu May 17, 2012 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

I'm not so sure about this being limited to the first few boats. I have boat 1440 built in February, 2011 and I have cracks. Last time I was out I heard clicking noises when the mast shifted from side to side (winds were 3~5).

Pics:
Image

Image

I wonder if it will hold in light to moderate winds or if I should stay in dry dock till it's replaced...

Cheers (suck, actually),

j

Author:  larryhts [ Thu May 17, 2012 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

J , Does yours have the weld on both sides front and back?

Larry

Author:  kayakman7 [ Thu May 17, 2012 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

larryhts wrote:
J , Does yours have the weld on both sides front and back?

Larry


No, Larry, it does not. It is only welded on the front. It does- did- look like a great weld job, very clean and smooth. It looks like the weld is failing due to stress rather than poor craftsmanship. I'm kind of relieved to have it fail now instead of next year during the Everglades Challenge :? . However, if you sail hard, be sure to check the weld frequently.

cheers,

j

Author:  sun E sailor [ Thu May 17, 2012 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

Well mine is on and it looks great, I just finished up.

Now, if it would only stop raining I could finish Laura's "Honey-Do" list by getting the last coat of paint on our pool deck and mow the lawn. If I get all that done tomorrow I'll can go test this puppy out on Saturday!

Larry if I were you, I'd try to take the bolts out and put the loc-tite on them. There's only 6, you just have to be careful taking out the 2 center ones that go through the crossbar. The nuts below are set in plastic and when my socket screw broke several months ago and the V brace had to be dissembled, the nuts did not hold.



j,

Sorry to see this. I'm no expert in aluminium welding but have you looked at it closely with a magnifying glass or tapped on the crossbar to hear if it has a buzzing sound? fusioneng would be much better at looking at these pictures and commenting. The grey line you're seeing looks just like the one I saw on my old crossbar weld before it broke, but I mistook it for wear.

The "clicking noises" you hearing when you tack could coming from any number of things. This has been discussed at length and there's several different opinions about the source.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=36284

I'm sure you've already checked and tightened all the hex head bolts that Matt just talked about today in this post. If that's not it, then my guess is the V-Brace Assembly and the socket screw needs attention.

Good luck.

Author:  bosab [ Thu May 17, 2012 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

I am sure that other post covers it but my mast noise was loose screws in the mast support post located in the bottom of the mast receiver. You have to carefully remove the four screws, the support post, clean out the opening and replace all with the locktite material. Looks easy but you need a long screwdriver and something to lower the screws into place with(grabber)

Author:  kayakman7 [ Thu May 17, 2012 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

You guys had me concerned that I was neglectful about maintaining my boat... So I checked all the nuts, bolts, and screws and found that everything was indeed still tight. Which means, at least to me, that I broke it by sailing it.

I'm just wondering exactly which conditions were to much...

Also, does the old x bar get returned to hobie? If not, I might make a TI3. All I would need are the clamps that hold the x bar down.

Cheers,
J

Author:  sun E sailor [ Wed May 23, 2012 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

bosab wrote:
I am sure that other post covers it but my mast noise was loose screws in the mast support post located in the bottom of the mast receiver. You have to carefully remove the four screws, the support post, clean out the opening and replace all with the locktite material. Looks easy but you need a long screwdriver and something to lower the screws into place with(grabber)

Well that's interesting :? yet another source for the elusive "popping sound" that comes from the Mast/Crossbar/V-Brace vicinity.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=36284
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=37312&p=152078#p152078
I think it's best to keep a eye on all the bolts (above and below) that keeps these parts tight and in place. I'm using Blue Loc-Tite now on everything.

Re: Reinstalling the Support Post:
Before I installed my new crossbar I also took out the (four screws) and the s.s. Support Post. Then with masking tape, I attached a 16" long 1/2" wood dowel to the end of the Post. I dabbed the ends of the four screws with Blue Lok-Tite and easily lowered the whole thing back down into the Mast Receiver. Once in place I just pulled the dowel and tape out. More better :wink:.

Author:  sun E sailor [ Wed May 23, 2012 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TI FWD XBAR FAILURE

kayakman7 wrote:
You guys had me concerned that I was neglectful about maintaining my boat... So I checked all the nuts, bolts, and screws and found that everything was indeed still tight. Which means, at least to me, that I broke it by sailing it.

I'm just wondering exactly which conditions were to much...

Also, does the old x bar get returned to hobie? If not, I might make a TI3. All I would need are the clamps that hold the x bar down.

Cheers,
J

kayakman7
If everything was tight that's good to know.

At this point I don't believe we have a definitive explanation as to what exactly causes the weld on the bearing plate to break. Hobie has since corrected this problem with their new design and that's what is most important.

What I've been trying to establish is how the average person can determine beforehand, if their old style crossbar is about to fail. I should think Hobie would be interested to have your crossbar to see if this "grey line" is actually a crack in the weld or not.

However, you did not break it by sailing it; it broke because somethings wrong, it's not your fault. As for "which conditions are too much..." I believe the general rule of thumb is when one begins to see the whole ama a couple of inches under water. It's also been well discussed about the benefit of when to reef your sail. Again, I wish for all of us to be as safe as possible on the water and proactive through these continuing discussions.

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