Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:29 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:28 am 
Offline
Hobie Tech / Moderator

Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 1:12 pm
Posts: 993
We only have them in 3 hole now - but maybe Austin had some from in their stock.

If a dealer orders a part today from Hobie Cat it ships with 3 holes. (same part number)

_________________
Jacques Bernier
http://www.hobiecat.com/
http://www.facebook.com/HobieCatCompany


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:30 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 1995
Location: High Point, NC
They special ordered it from Hobie. Didn't have any in stock.

Guess I just got lucky, or unlucky as the case may be.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:44 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 1995
Location: High Point, NC
No luck, they shipped another 2-hole gudgeon.

It is very important to have your dealer specify the newer 3-hole model. The first one I was sent was the 2-mole model, then the next one, sourced by the dealer direct from Hobie about a week ago, also came in as the 2-hole model. Have not been able to obtain the 3-hole gudgeon yet, but the dealer is going to try again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:56 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 184
Location: Perth West Australia
Tom Kirkman wrote:
No luck, they shipped another 2-hole gudgeon.

It is very important to have your dealer specify the newer 3-hole model. The first one I was sent was the 2-mole model, then the next one, sourced by the dealer direct from Hobie about a week ago, also came in as the 2-hole model. Have not been able to obtain the 3-hole gudgeon yet, but the dealer is going to try again.


Same here Tom,
I have ordered a 3 hole gudgeon and the new stronger studs. Got three studs but the gudgeon is the same 2 hole unit as I already have fitted to my 3 hole transom?

I will have to try again and be more assertive that it has to have 3 holes this time.

_________________
Geordie
West Ausie


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:25 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1210
Location: sarasota,fl
Guys:
Adding or changing the screws to stronger screws doesn't fix the initial problem, it only masks it. In my opinion there is no need to go to great lengths replacing screws and gudgeons to fix the actual problem.
As Tom pointed out it's the actual fit of the gudgeon to the transom that is the root of the problem (not the screw strength). When the screws are tightened down the only point of contact with the hull is the area immediately around the screw, everywhere else has a large gap (as seen in the above picture). This puts huge side load onto the screw as the rudder tries to move side to side, eventually fatiguing the screw (no screws are designed to withstand this type of load (like a titer tater in a playground).
The correct action to fix the problem is to make sure the foot print of the gudgeon against the hull is as large and big an area as possible, so as to prevent any possibility of the gudgeon rocking back and forth. Once this is accomplished just the stock screws (if they have not already been fatigued?) should be 5 times stronger that what is necessary for the joint.
There are plenty of different ways to remedy the actual problem, and it should be very easy.

1. You can do as Tom did and sand and refit the gudgeon so the gudgeon cannot rock on the back of the boat (probably the most sure fix, but time consuming)

2. A hard foam gasket could be cut out with a large opening in the center and pinched between the hull and the gudgeon. The gasket when fit correctly should prevent the gudgeon from rocking. (to test you would tighten the screws finger tight and see if the gudgeon still rocks, this could take several tried to get exactly right)

3. What I did and what seems to be the simplest fix is just to remove the gudgeon, fill the back of the gudgeon with silicone sealer, then bolt the gudgeon back down using the existing screws. The excess silicone just oozes out and you wipe it up. Once the silicone sets up you have a completely conforming gasket that prevents the gudgeon from rocking back and forth.

I'm on my third TI now an this has been a design problem since day one on the TI's, each time I get a new one I just apply this simple (option 3) fix (it takes all of 5 minutes to do), and my gudgeon problems all go away for the life of the boat. No need to order extra parts, no need to get a new gudgeon and try to retrofit anything new to the boat. A simple and practical fix to a simple problem, no need to over think anything here. I recommend anyone with an older hull (older than 2014) apply this fix, if for nothing else just piece of mind.

I bought my last TI new in July 2012 and it has nothing as far as changes to the gudgeon or the back of the hull (no different from the original 2010 design), basically two 1/4-20 brass inserts in the hull, with an ill fitted gudgeon bolted onto the back, so I am not seeing the claimed running changes from mid 2011 (neither my 2011 model TI or my 2012 model had any of these changes).
I will likely buy another new TI next year, and even with Hobies many attempts at working around the problem, I will still when I get my new boat home, take the gudgeon off, fill it with silicone, and put it back on before taking the boat out the first time.

Hope this helps
Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:58 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 184
Location: Perth West Australia
Good idea Bob.

_________________
Geordie
West Ausie


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:35 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2659
Location: Kailua 96734
+1


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:34 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:53 am
Posts: 299
Location: Palm City, Florida
I was with snjsanders the day his gudgeon screw broke which prompted me to be proactive about my boat which has the 2 screw gudgeon.
I agree with Bob and Toms method as I pretty much did the same thing last year and have had no problems since.
I ordered a new 2 hole gudgeon and the 8030346 SCREW W/NUT ISLAND GUDGEON STUD 1/4-20 x 1" PH17-4 W/ NUT SEIZED from Hobie. I carefully filed and sanded the back of the new gudgeon to achieve a better fit to the rear of the hull and then applied a automotive gasket sealer prior to installing it. I also used blue loc-tite on the screws.

_________________
Sun E Sailor
Ezra Appel
Palm City, Florida
2014 Tandem Island


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:25 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2659
Location: Kailua 96734
+2! :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:15 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 184
Location: Perth West Australia
Update on my TI gudgeon.

I got the three new bolts and the three hole gudgeon. As per Tom's idea I gave the rear surface a sand to shape it to fit the hull. I also had to shave off a small amount on the rear surface of the hull because the previous two hole mounting had caused the plastic around the holes to be pulled up to a slight raised bulge around each hole. SO I shaved both down flat and matched the gudgeon to fit the hull perfectly.

I then used silicone sealer to fill the gudgeon around the bolts and along the sides where it contacts the hull. I bolted it down tight till the silicone sealer squeezed out making a tight rubber gasket. To allow the pin to be removed (and not stick to the sealer), I put silicone O-ring grease as a release agent on the old rudder pin and slid it in through the sealer. Once the sealer had started to cure, semi set, I removed the pin and cleaned up any extra sealer.

It is so well attached now there is no way that any movement will be an issue. The other advantage of the silicone sealer fill: I sail from a sandy beach and have often had sand jammed in the gudgeon and grinding down the rudder pin. With the sealer, there is no place anymore for the sand to enter or be trapped around the pin and grind it down.

Thanks to all of you as I would have not even have known that there was a better gudgeon and bolts available till I read your trials here.

_________________
Geordie
West Ausie


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:33 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2659
Location: Kailua 96734
Photos are always welcomed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:57 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:57 pm
Posts: 177
Location: Delaware Coast
I am still confused. I want to replace BOTH my screws.

Do I order two "8030346 SCREW W/NUT ISLAND GUDGEON STUD 1/4-20 x 1" PH17-4 W/ NUT SEIZED", or do I need to order a different part number for the top screw?

Also, is anything to be gained by using the newer 3 hole gudgeon even though I only have inserts for two screws on my TI? Looking at my current two holer, it looks like a 3 holer would have more surface contact with the boat even without the third screw.

Thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:53 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:57 pm
Posts: 177
Location: Delaware Coast
No one aswered me so I will answer myself in case anyone else needs this information.

Herbaldew wrote:
I am still confused. I want to replace BOTH my screws.
Do I order two "8030346 SCREW W/NUT ISLAND GUDGEON STUD 1/4-20 x 1" PH17-4 W/ NUT SEIZED", or do I need to order a different part number for the top screw?

They are the same.
Herbaldew wrote:
Also, is anything to be gained by using the newer 3 hole gudgeon even though I only have inserts for two screws on my TI? Looking at my current two holer, it looks like a 3 holer would have more surface contact with the boat even without the third screw.


Yes or no, depending on which gudgeon you have. If you have the gudgeon in Tom's picture, there is no advantage. The molding around the holes is even with the edges on my old gudgeon but are recessed by ~1mm on the new one so they don't make contact anyway. However, my two hole gudgeon is not the same as Tom's. They made at least three versions: Like my original, like Tom's and the 3 holed version. Tom's is shaped the same as the 3 hole version, but as you can see in the picture below, mine is not. I think there is a substantial benefit in upgrading from mine to either Tom's model or the 3 hole version due to the width difference.

Image

Due to the way my bottom insert is bulged out (see snjsander's pic below), I also filed away some of the bottom hole molding so the gudgeon edges would contact the hull. Then I cut a gasket out of "Fel-Pro Rubber-Fiber" gasket material to make a good all around firm attachment.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:48 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2659
Location: Kailua 96734
Herbaldew, thanks for pointing out the different gudgeon shapes.

To clarify, did you file down the hull or the gudgeon?

In SNJ's picture, the brass insert is pulled out, so filing the hull would have little effect. The metal would have to be taken down too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:57 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:57 pm
Posts: 177
Location: Delaware Coast
I didn't touch the hull, just filed (well, Dremeled actually) the round area immediately next to the bottom hole to get a better fit against the hull. Even after that there was still some gap between the bottom hole to halfway up the gudgeon, so I used one full gasket and made another but only used the bottom half of it to fill the gap. Others have used silicon, but I had the gasket material already and thought it would be sturdier.

Here is a picture posted in another thread by sharrissmith to show what I mean by "the round area immediately next to the bottom hole".

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group