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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:31 pm 
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Hello everyone,

I'm having an issue with a 2013 Tandem Island where my akas are lifting out of the amas and significantly twisting inward when someone, who meets the weight requirements, is sitting out on the tramps. I've tightened my bungees and it doesn't seem to help the issue. This video link I found very clearly shows the issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laMpF6IT4G0

I'm considering using tie down straps connected to the akas and ama front and rear eyelits to pull the akas apart or possibly rigging a 2" pvc pipe between the akas to act as a rigid spreader but don't want it to interfere with the tramps.

Anyone had similar issues or have any advice?

Thanks

Climb trees


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:11 am 
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I would think that the bungee's are not tight enough to hold the aka down into the ama. Maybe compare to another Island's aka bungees?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:19 am 
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I've seen that happen as the akas are pulled towards each other when the trampolines are loaded. Happens when the high side ama is out of the water. Some here have increased aka bungee strength, tension or diameter. Some have added hardware to secure the aka in place. Another is using Haka seats or a brace fore and aft to prevent the akas from moving toward each other.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:43 am 
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Thanks for the quick feedback! I have two more questions if you don't mind. First, would you have any quick links to show anyone's build of fore to aft brace? I've hunted through hundreds of posts but I'm not having any luck. Second, I've noticed the portion of my aka that sits down inside the ama, the nipple looking plastic cap, is split/cracked half off, likely from the pressure applied when it twisted out. I have pictures but I'm not sure how to include them in the post. Since this is a 2013 is this something I should bring to my dealer as a potential warranty issue. I'm actually even more concerned with the inside of the ama too where the aka pressure was being applied but I haven't noticed any cracks just scrapes where the aka slides in and out.

Thanks for the help.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:51 pm 
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Location: South Florida
It looks from that video that the bungees are too weak. Many people have "double bungeed" their amas. Here is a link to a search for "double bungee ama aka" http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/search.php?keywords=%2Bdouble+%2Baka+%2Bama+%2Bbungee&terms=all&author=&fid%5B%5D=67&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

I like Topher's double bungee method best. http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=42732&p=178539&hilit=+double+aka+ama+bungee#p178539

If you increase the strength of your bungees or double bungee the ama, be sure to get the best quality bungee cord available.

Keith

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:11 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
Wow. The tramps are much too loose in that video. Are they TI or AI tramps?

I would start by adjusting the tramps taut and adding the double bungees as suggested. That should fix it.

If not, consider adding a spreader bar between the Akas, or using Hakas instead. (Lose the ability to fold the Amas back though).

But without double bungees, the Amas will still wobble and drop in choppy conditions.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:22 pm 
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Thanks for the advice Nohuhu. It's actually not my video, just one I plagiarized off the internet that just happened to show the same issue I've been having. I have TI tramps and keep them pretty tight so much so that when I tighten them down the bracket is just about touching the aka. I think my best bet is to double bungee like everyone is saying and work on some way to make a spreader bar. I really like the tramps so I'm hesitant to cast them aside in lew of hakas but if all else fails I'll build a set. I wish there was a spreader you could just buy that had the high speed rail blazer type attachment. I've been contemplating 1.25" pvc saddle tees with an easily removable pvc pipe in between so we'll see. My biggest dilemma is how to attach a bar to the hakas that still looks sleek and cool like the rest of the boat. If I come up with something good I'll post some pics.

Thanks again everyone.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:12 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
Tree - buy yourself a set of Aka brace end caps, and the balls that they attach to. Drill the balls into the outside Aka edges and fit the end caps into a length of aluminum tube. Paint it black.

Voila! You have quick-connect spreader bars that look stock.

Image

You can use them with Hakas or tramps.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:21 am 
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Holly cow Nohuhu......Perfect!!

Thank you very very much! Any chance you remember the diameter of the aluminum rod you used? Did you seal the hole you drilled into the aka or with silicone or rubber washers or did you just screw the ball in dry? Maybe thread-lock would be a good idea too....or maybe just overkill.

Thanks again everyone, you've been incredibly helpful.



~Trees


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:32 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
climb trees:
We have our Tandem Island hardened for offshore use, the stock TI only has a CE "D" rating. Because we go offshore with it we had to harden certain areas of the boat to make it suitable for offshore use. One of the areas that needed to be hardened is the AMA's and the bungy attachment that holds them on.
What I did on mine using 1/4" dia nylon (stretchy) rope, I tied the rope around the front AKA hull braces (one on each side of the hull holding the front AKA bar in place. I then ran the rope to the metal cleat in the center of the AMA. I put a clip on the end that goes onto the AMA cleat so basically the rope is attached to the boat always, when stored I just shove the ropes into the mesh pockets, then when setting up the boat I clip the rope onto the metal cleat on the AMA. I have mine a little taught. This does three things:
1. If the nylon sheer bolt on the rear AKA bar ever breaks, the rope prevents the AMA from folding in (which would surely capsize the boat if under sail).
2. The rope prevents the AKA bar knuckles from popping out while underway (this has happened to us several times), which always has the same result,,,,, we capsize.
3. The rope because it's stretchy nylon puts spring tension on the AMA's so they don't rattle around at all or drop down and sag when the AMA is up in the air. We scuba dive off of our TI and often climb into the boat over the AMA and onto the tramps, without the brace ropes you can't do that.

Now if you want to be extra safe you can add a second line from the rear AKA hull braces (one on each side) up to the center metal cleat in the middle of the AMA, what this does is create a truss type structure, adding even more additional strength. Same situation, you only run the ropes one time, then just unclip them after every use and stuff them in the mesh pockets for storage.

I also recommend that you either shorten your existing bungys (replace them if they are fatigued). You can shorten them by unscrewing the plug that holds the bungy into the hull with needle nose pliers. Cut an inch or so off the end, then re-tie the knot on the end of the bungy and screw the plug back into the AMA. Actually you only need to stretch them over the little cleat to get them on, so it's probably a good idea to have them just long enough so if you push down on the AMA with your had, the AMA can only go down an inch or two before maxxing out the bungy. By doing this you should never have the problem you are currently having (the AMA twisting out of the hole).

If you want to go extra fancy so you can actually have swimmers sit on the AMA's, it will take about an hour and cost about $3 bucks in materials, you will also need some needle nose pliers. Basically what you do is unscrew both of the black bungy fittings and and remove both fittings. Now you go to your Hobie dealer and buy some Spectra string (that grey rudder line they use in all Hobie rudder systems), this stuff is no stretch and incredibly strong ( 700 lb test), I don't recommend anything else (definitely nothing from walmart or Home depot, etc). First of cut off an inch or so of your existing bungy like I described above (it doesn't need to be as long as you have it), then re-tie a new knot on the end.
Now take some of the Spectra string and tie a cinch knot at one end, loop the end thru the cinch knot (like a noose (google it)) then around the bungy (below the fitting) now fish the end thru the fitting along side the bungy cord. To test it you put the plug back in the tug on the spectra string sticking out as hard as you possibly can (try jirking it a few times), it should not move no matter how hard you pull, If it pulls out you have to make a bigger cinch knot.
Now you go over to the other fitting and do the same. When your done you will have a loop of grey string along side the bungy. What I did was make the loop long enough so you can wrap the spectra around the post on the AKA at least once, then pull the bungy over the top of it. It will still be loose, where if you take the bungy off, the AMA will fall about a half an inch to an inch or so before they pull taught. With the spectra string on there your AMA can easily support 300 lbs plus (or until the plastic fitting fail (whichever comes first). The spectra string is around $.30 cents a foot at you local dealer, or mail order ( http://www.austinkayak.com/products/632 ... -Line.html). You will easily be able to have swimmers sitting on the AMA's, and climbing on board over them (that's what we do).

Keep in mind once you have strengthened all this sacrificial break away crap, if you do happen to hit a dock or something, you are liable to bend and AKA bar, or even break the boat itself vs just breaking that tiny little nylon bolt on the AKA, but I have a feeling it would take quite an impact to damage the boat, and if the impact is that big, chances are something else will be breaking anyway. Besides if your coming in thru surf or something crazy you can always just unclip all the bracing first, then the boat is the old standard.
Should only take an hour of your time and will cost you about $3 bucks in string (keep the extra in your dry bag for repairs)

Hope this helps
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:30 pm 
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Thanks for the info Bob, very informative. I've considered lashing the amas to the hakas but was concerned about ripping the plastic plugs right out of the amas just like you mentioned. I really like your idea of giving the ama some play but quickly maxing out the travel distance with the spectra string.

Any chance you'd be able to post a few picks showing the aka/ama lashing you discussed in the start of your post. I think I have a good idea of what you mean but I don't think I completely followed.

Thanks again for all the advice, it's greatly appreciated.

~Trees


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:41 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
Trees, IIRC, the tubing is 3/4", same as the existing Aka brace obviously. Take the end caps set to the store with you, to test fit your metal tubes. You could go with one steel tube, but we chose 2 layers of aluminum.

We dry fit the end caps, cut the 3/4" to length and then sleeved it with 7/8" aluminum tubing for strength. (We use it as a hand rail as well). The sleeves are gooped together, then the hobie end caps are drilled and attached.

The caps come in 2 pieces, an insert and a spring loaded cover. It will all make sense when you see them.

Hobies ball and socket end caps wobble a lot so we just bungee them down for safety. Works great.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:55 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
climb trees:
I can't take any pic right now of my TI because I have it all apart in pieces doing my annual (fix and remove all the hull scratches, and general repairs and updates), I'm also updating and painting my trailer (it's made of steel and needs to be scraped and re-painted annually, (kind of a pain))

Here is an old pic showing the safety rope clipped to the AMA. I attached that rope to the front AKA brace (strongest point on the boat) and it is never removed from the boat, when done sailing I just unclip it and stuff it into the mesh pocket. I put that rope on in May 2010, and still had exactly the same rope and clip on the boat 4 yrs and 6-7k miles later, until a couple weeks ago where I made new spray skirts for the front of the boat that are strong enough to sit on and stow gear on, I incorporated the same concept with the new ropes/braces.
Image
Hope this helps
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:02 pm 
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Some folks tie these safety lines up to the bow and front Ama padeye, But Bobs solution is easier to manage.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:07 am 
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Location: Wantirna South VIC Australia
Hi Climb trees,
That's my video from Jan this year. My wife and I were in Port Stephens NSW on holidays and discovered the AKAs were twisting out of the AMAs.
I noticed this as I was taking that video.
We pulled into the nearest beach and I tightened the rear bungies by pulling them over the top "button" and adding further tension by effectively creating a figure 8 using the lower button.

When we got back to our campsite I found the starboard AMA was very heavy due to it containing a sig amount of water. Further investigation revealed they had a gash on the inside of the tube into which the AKAs are fitted as seen here:
Image

That was a real let down on our holiday given the boat had only been in the water 3 times. See my post at the time here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=50093#p226947

It was very clear that I had AMAs with 2 serious problems:
1. The bungies were far too loose.
2. The molding process had a problem and the walls of the tubes into which the AKAs slot were way too thin.

I contacted my Hobie dealer (in Victoria) and a couple of weeks later Hobie replaced both AMAs under warranty. The bungies are now much much tighter and the tube walls do not flex when I push with my finger.

Re the comment regarding the tramps being loose. I agree they seem to sag a lot when anyone is sitting on them BUT they are tightened up as far as the buckles will allow. I haven't yet figured out a way to get them any tighter.

Regards,
Ian

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