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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:04 am 
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rodrocket wrote:
Lt.FireDog wrote:
Knogg,
thanks for posting the video, we can talk all day about self rescue, but your video is the real deal.
Also, thanks for coming on the forum and giving us more insight to the situation.....we can speculate about the circumstances surrounding the event, but it's all hotair till we hear it from the "star" of the video.
Again, Thanks! Image


So,
No Hobie "gurus" are forthcoming with any observations as to why this has happened in conditions which may well be experienced by any PA owners other than "it's all just hot air" until the "star" makes comments.
That's actually not very helpful. It's also meaningless.
What the hell does that mean ?
It just seems to be a simply accepted process with, yes, strong winds 25-35 knots and wind waves to match
Corey (bless his soul) maintains that his Hobie PA12 behaves like this in crap conditions as standard.
What are we to assume ???????
We own craft that will not tolerate these conditions ?
These conditions can occur (obviously) at any time !
The rudder system will not give adequate control in a wave ?
Expect to capsize ?
Our craft have a inherent deficiency in these conditions ?
Do we only use them if conditions are less than what is shown in video ?
Hope to god conditions don't ever turn to crap ?
Do we have our heads buried in the sand and ignore the issues before us ?
I'm sorry, I love my PA/s, but nobody has come up with any excuse/explanation/reason to satisfy my own concerns with the ctaft behaviour in this event, which I think is a problem to anyone who is out there in the elements on a PA12.
Cheers,
Rod

Obnoxious little thing aren't ya!!!!
I Think your rocket fuel is stale.

Take your 35knot winds and place them in a sail where the belong. As far as the hobie gurus are concerned they all seem to point out the PA isn't an ocean kayak nor was it intended to be. I knew that and stayed close to the launch and in the mildly protected cove area that the west cape ramp sits in.

The below warning that I just found that I had no idea about and now reslise my biggest failure was searching more extensively than the previous relied on websites and weather channels I had used. As this was issued that morning at 4:30am


I don't feel I need to prove anything to poor old rodrocket (bless his faint little soul) but I do beleive the bonus is it removes any validity to the self inflating manner in which he is arguing (trying) with.

My point is the 90km/h granted I claimed 50 knots surely I'm allowed a few as grace :lol:
I copied and pasted the main body of text with the direct link further below.

Source: Bureau of Meteorology

for people in the North Central, Central and West and South Gippsland forecast districts

Issued at 4:43 am EDT on Friday 25 January 2013.
Weather Situation

A cold front over southwestern Victoria will extend to central and eastern areas during Friday morning and afternoon.

Damaging winds averaging 60 to 70 km/h with peak gusts up to 90 km/h :oops: are forecast for parts of the North Central, Central and West and South Gippsland forecast districts, particularly about elevated areas.

http://www.ewn.com.au/alerts/2013-01-24 ... 65.weather

I still love the PA and like others using them have found many similar attributes to what I've outlined and in no way is it a criticism. Park a PA Next to any Ocean kayak and you can soon see the vast design differences. I have absolutely no hesitation in future upgrading to newer PA models in the years to come.

Cheers Corey !!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:09 am 
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Knogg
Thanks for posting the video and your comments.

Regards....


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:32 am 
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Location: vero beach, fl
Corey,
First of all I greatly appreciate your posting the video. I can't say it has gone 'viral', but I can say it has shown up on all the forums I frequent. In this, it has created great awareness for changing weather conditions, rigging gear and causing everyone to double think their own safety procedures.
Secondly I appreciate you posting the sebsequent description and analysis. It provides great insight on what was actually happening and what your thought process was.
I can't comment on the open-ocean seaworthyness of the pro angler series. We don't typically fish in the ocean, so my experience is limited. But one only has to read reports to realize there may be better choices in the Hobie line more specific to open ocean fishing. There is nothing seriously 'wrong' with a PA, not withstanding some characteristics of the design, no more there is anything 'wrong' with any other model. It just may be that there are other features in other models that are better suited to the ocean.

Cheers
Drew

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Corey,
thanks for that.
My question/s are directed to the PA's design and useage limitations which I feel maybe should be clarified, probably by Hobie.
I'm surprised you choose to attack someone with a genuine concern for everyones safety.
Do i have no right to question my crafts abilities and design ?
Cheers,
Rod


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:36 pm 
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rodrocket wrote:
Corey,
thanks for that.
My question/s are directed to the PA's design and useage limitations which I feel maybe should be clarified, probably by Hobie.
I'm surprised you choose to attack someone with a genuine concern for everyones safety.
Do i have no right to question my crafts abilities and design ?
Cheers,
Rod

I was just having a cheeky stab as I took you as being somewhat condescending. I appologise if that was misguided. My claims are substantiated through plenty of testiments across reviews once in these conditions.

I will take mine out again yet it is always a risk. Hobie advertisement for the PA 12 talks of open ocean and I stand by it being perfectly fine. But once the a tight swell picks up I find them severely in adequate to comfortably maintain its normal behaviour. Large wide undulating swell bears no problem and I would and did confidently stand but once that swell transforms then the PA is not a yak I want to be in. The conditions on the video is something I and no other kayak can handle and that's indesputable. Including the many large fishing vessels that had the same stance.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Quote:
My question/s are directed to the PA's design and usage limitations which I feel maybe should be clarified, probably by Hobie.


Knogg wrote:
The conditions on the video is something I and no other kayak can handle and that's indisputable. Including the many large fishing vessels that had the same stance.


We go by Small Craft Advisory recommendations which are generally around 22 knots and varies by region and sea conditions. Certainly the conditions in the video exceeded that and by a fair margin. I am confident that the video does not represent "normal" conditions. The high wind, steep swell and high seat position are all factors for sure.

Even though it is not a fair situation to critique design elements related to handling and stability, it was quite extreme, the fact is that Knogg was able to right the boat, remain afloat, recover gear and return to the harbor. That in itself is a testament to the MirageDrive and the Pro Angler. Any paddle kayak would have been on the rocks long before. Would a larger rudder have helped? Maybe, but you have to have forward speed to get a rudder to be effective.

Even a Hobie Catamaran (or any sailboat), in my personal experience, with a pair of HUGE rudders, will have difficulty making headway in that high wind once feathering close to head-to-wind... enough to get steerage. You have to bear away... gain speed and then turn up and through the wind.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:27 am 
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It would be nice if Hobie addressed the secondary stability issues that many people lament about on multple boards on the new designs. A little flair in the upper gunnels would probably take care of it.

I LOVE my PA's but the ability to safely surf launch and return would be wonderful as well as the safety factor as highlighted in this video. A little bit of secondary stability would accomplish this.

It's the 1 thing that is talked about alot.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:44 am 
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I have forwarded your comments to our Fishing product manager and engineers.

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Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:08 pm 
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Thanks Matt


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:25 pm 
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Location: Burleson Tx.
Man that most have totally sucked..makes for bad start in your day..

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http://www.fishingscout.com/anglers/cudadude


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:14 am 
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Just for the PAs record:Ive been out in 30kn winds gusting to 50 and been able to hold position in the PA well enough to jig 200ft on Tahoe, caps but no swells. i felt pretty confident other than the water temp in march being 45. Its all about where u put the bow. i eventually puckered after 2 fish and headed in so as not to push my luck, my buddy was right there with me in an outback. ive had my 14 3 yrs and have been in everything from blizzards to fast moving rivers, the PA handles well.Its seems pretty straight forward why this happened, he was too high in the seat, he got broadside to a wave. Thats all it takes in any boat. If youre broadside to a wave thats bigger than the boat can handle, you going to flip. If you fish those type conditions which many of us do, its not a question of IF but WHEN ... Tight lines... Nice job on the stern self rescue


Last edited by Jude on Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:21 am 
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Jude wrote:
Its seems pretty straight forward why this happened, he was too high in the seat, he got broadside to a wave. Thats all it takes in any boat. If youre broadside to a wave thats bigger than the boat can handle, you going to flip.

Ummmm yeah nope !!!Seat position played no part. I went back out an hour later with less than half the wind speed and same box and dice, after having the seat lowered to the deck I still went A/O which ill upload soon.

I wouldn't have wanted to be out there in a large boat let alone a yak


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:23 am 
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Cudadude wrote:
Man that most have totally sucked..makes for bad start in your day..

It certainly planned the rest of my day washing the salt from what seemed like everything I own do I could pack to travel 4+ hours home


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:34 am 
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High seat is definetly a factor. Even Matt from Hobie said that. I spent my first 30 years in a canoe and would always drop my seats 6 inches. High center is no bueno, if you flipped the second time low & empty then the conditions exceeded ability. That being said my experience is in a 14 not a 12 & everyone should not exceed their personal limits whatever they may be.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:45 am 
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Jude wrote:
High seat is definetly a factor. Even Matt from Hobie said that. I spent my first 30 years in a canoe and would always drop my seats 6 inches. High center is no bueno, if you flipped the second time low & empty then the conditions exceeded ability. That being said my experience is in a 14 not a 12 & everyone should not exceed their personal limits whatever they may be.

Like I said yet again the seat height made no difference in this circumstance and yes the conditions certainly exceeded "EVERY" kayaks capabilities Image
That was a photo 1 hour later when I went out again after what I had already been through. These were not a swell they were fully fledged waves coming from every angle.


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