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 Post subject: PA for the big guy???
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:11 pm 
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I'm sure this has been covered, but thought I would get some possible reassurance. I don't own a PA yet, but I will after Christmas. After researching kayaks from Malibu, OK, WS, etc, I have decided that the Hobie PA is best set for what I need and want to do.
Here's the potential problem. Just how strong are the hulls on these things? I've never owned a kayak before so skepticism is in my nature, especially with my size. I'm 6' and about 270 lbs. I know that there are also some other big boys who have the PA and swear by it's strength, but I've also read some posts on areas around scupper holes cracking, seat post areas cracking, etc. This is where most of my concern lays, as with standing and sitting, the majority of weight is centered around these area :D
I also had another question regarding the strength of the plastic. I was reading a thread in which a person bought a spacer for the seat to raise him 7" or something. To most, this seemed like a phenomenal idea, however, a couple people (including Matt) advised that the extra elevation could create more stress in the seat post areas. Obviously, I was concerned because if raising the seat 7" created more stress on the posts, with a person who may be 200 lbs, what is it going to do at normal height with a person who is 270 :D

Last question, and just actually an idea but also has to do with the strength. I know there are wheels for the boat which mount in the scupper holes for transport. Has any thought been given to changing the location of the wheel to the back where the skids are, and just mounting them on some sort of spring hinge? Roll the kayak to your destination, enter the water, and pull a rope to flip the wheels up. Won't take space, and out of the water....then when you get out, release the rope and flip them under. The two potential issues I see are stress on the hull itself from the weight of the boat, and having a heavier bow for transport when carrying the front end due to the pivot point being non-existent.

Anyway, feedback is appreciated. Maybe a solution to this problem would be to purchase a treadmill first and cut back on the Mickey Ds :D


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:09 pm 
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Wow, wasn't expecting this thread to be posted :D I do have another question for a pre-rigging plan. I need an area measurement for those who have a PA.

The space behind the seat located on the sides of the well, before the rod holder. I know on KFN's review, they spoke of it mentioning that a rod holder or something could possibly be put there. One I'm looking to put there are downrigger mounts (2 scotty mounts for the Compact Downriggers, probably the DepthMaster 23" as I believe the DepthKing wheel would be too large). I live about 2 miles from the freshwater of Lake Powell (Located in Northern AZ for those of you who don't know). Anyway, a primary attraction for fishing this lake are freshwater stripers, and the primary method is sinking an anchovie (sp?). However, some people use downriggers and troll, which is what I want to do. I like the options of the compact riggers more than the Lake Troller series, which is why I was looking at those more.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:00 pm 
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I'm a pretty big guy and I've had no problems so far with my PA. I don't stand in the boat though, so I don't know if that could cause cracking around the scupper holes because of the extra pressure. I prefer to keep my center of gravity as close to the water as possible. If/ when I do stand up, its not to walk around. It's just to stretch my legs and allow the blood to circulate around my posterior :lol:

Good idea for repositioning the cart. I've pondered that idea often. It would be nice to not have to turn the PA on it's side to install/remove the cart. If you try to install/ remove the cart when the PA is already in the water, It is a pain in the u-know-what and can be very wet. One of the possible problems with installing the cart with a hinge on the back of the PA is that you would have to remove the rear handle? And it would also put all the PA's weight on a smaller surface area which would probably require some extra structural reinforcing? It also seems that it would make steering the PA while pulling it out to the launch site more challenging...If you figure a way around the mounting and balance issues I would be interested in seeing your design.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:21 am 
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Location: Victoria, Australia
My biggest concern (pun not intended) is not the strength of the kayak but your ability to do a deep water re-entry if you do happen to capsize, having down riggers mounted behind the seat means you will have to be turning around a fair bit to work the down-rigger, your weight plus the bomb hanging over the side (i use 2.5kg 5.5lb on my AI), this may also help sift the center of gravity and cause you to capsize.

I don't own a PA and am only a little bloke so I am not sure of a PA's stability in regard to bigger people, but I have had to tow a guy behind my AI because he could not get back on his kayak or on my AI. He was exhausted when I found him and would not have lasted much longer had I not come along.

My worry is your safety if you fall in, not if the kayak will with stand your weight.


As for the folding wheels, if the frame you mounted them on was to tuck under the kayak with cups that mold the hull so the kayak hull sat in the cups, this would help eliminate the direct weight being imposed on the mount point alone and be similar to the scupper mount. A tie down across the top of the hull would stop it from folding while being moved.
The weight of the bow would be a lot however and being a back pain sufferer I think it would be a back killer and not such a great idea unless you also fitted a dolly wheel up front as well. By the way that could also be done on the same principle but if you were going to that much trouble, it would be easier to buy a proper trailer.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:37 am 
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Most of the problems with the scupper holes is when people misuse the kayak cart. Then the cart breaks the holes.

The seat problems are caused by modifications made by the owner. They will tweak the seat height or move the seat back and drill new holes and then the problem arises with these changes...

maybe someone with experience with the seat and their modifications will chime in.

you will not find a better yak for fishing then the PA....No matter what size you are. One thing you should consider is buying a trailer for the PA.. Very hard to get on top of a car or truck by yourself...

Good Luck with your purchase.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:45 am 
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I am 6'3" and around 200 lbs. I find the PA ultra stable and never felt like I was going to capsize or fall out at any time.
Instead of using a downrigger to get down deep how about lead core line? Fishing with lead core line is a lot less hassle IMO, of course you can't go as deep as a DR. I just don't think a DR on a yak is a good idea but that is only my opinion.
I don't like the scupper carts especially on a heavy yak like the PA. I use a cart that slides under the yak and it is strapped on, easy to get on and once you are at the water easy to get off. another thing with your idea of putting the wheels on a hinge at the end of the yak it will be a lot harder to lift and wheel the yak around especially on a heavy yak like the PA. I find that if I put the cart wheels right below where the front storage area meets the footwell in the PA the yak is very easy to lift and wheel around.
if you can afford it a trailer for the PA is very nice. I use a post WWll 1/4 ton Bantam trailer (1946) mainly for its ruggedness and ability to go where my 4x4 pickup can go but it is a pain to lift it high enough to get it on the rack.
Image


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Wow, a lot of things and suggestions to respond to :D Lets start from the beginning...

Yakfish:
My suggestion for the cart/wheels would be to go around the rear bar, which would also possibly aid in the support of it. Hard to explain in a way, but having a curved semi circle with mounting points replacing the skids, and the wheels at the other end. The bars would loop around the rear handle, providing multiple features....a platform to support the rear when the bar is down, curved bars would provide basically a torsion suspension for moving the kayak, and would continue you mount out of the way. I will attempt to post a picture, after this thread...but for the most part, it could be constructed out of conduit....Light, sturdy, and able to bend with ease for construction.

Elm:
I like your first comment of the ability to self recover from deep water. Trust me, this would be practiced over and over again. I prepare and consider everything before I take on something which could turn out to be dangerous....i.e. Fishing in a canyon with a 400ft depth, in between 100ft. canyon walls, and in the middle of the fall where the water is 50 degress....so yeah, it would be practiced in 10ft. water where the water is 75 degrees first :D Thanks. I like your idea of the mounts to cradle the hull of the kayak as well. Maybe I'll try to incorporate that in to a design.
As for the downrigger....that was just one place I was thinking of mounting it. Of course, with the star boards and everything else, there are several other possibilities, which also include not having a downrigger at all.

Thinwater skinner:
Thanks for the comments....I'm sure 95% of all failure is due to operator error. I just saw the pictures of the seat extension, which was different than what I thought it would be...however, I think for a person of my size at the time...the lower I can get to the water, the better :D

Last but not least, atavuss:
Sweet trailer!!! Love the idea and not only that, it would enable me to tow it with my XJ Cherokee to the lake, or with my Polaris RZR (actually my paps) to tow it to high mountain lakes. I'll have to look in to that. I think I saw one a while back, but it was more like a utility box trailer...same concept, just had some hatches on the side.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:29 pm 
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The PA is ideal for large anglers. It has the capacity to handle you.

Once a PA is on the water, it's hard to put much stress on anything - because it's on the water, it moves any time you apply pressure.

Most any damage that would be done to these type plastic boats, is done on dry land or during transport or storage. Standing in a PA on the water isn't likely to hurt it. Doing the same on dry land, over time, might.

.............


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:43 am 
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I'm about your size and have had no problems, although my PA is fairly new. The scupper and wheel holes should be a non-issue since the weight of angler and gear is spreadout across the surface of the hull. The comments about wheel hole cracking being due to cart user error make a lot of sense to me. The seat post fittings are the most likely point of failure in my mind.

Re: cart hole positioning: I think that part of the logic behind the placement of the cart holes is to bring them near to the center of gravity to reduce the "required lifting force” at the bow, making it easier to lift the bow and move the boat. I seem to remember seeing a spec somewhere that the lifting weight at the bow with the Hobie cart installed is something like 25 lbs. This also makes it somewhat more maneuverable, depending on what you’re trying to do. Bear in mind that moving the wheels to the stern will increase the lifting force required at the bow; up to 1/2 the weight of the boat. Just lift the bow without the wheels installed to get an idea of the lifting force needed.

I agree with all comments recommending trailers vs. car topping - unless you're young and in great shape. I put together a trailer setup from a HF trailer kit with a total cost of ~$300. I couldn't be happier with the results. See string: viewtopic.php?f=78&t=32325 . Others have converted boat and water ski trailers with good results.

Have fun!
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:19 pm 
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TroutNoDoubt wrote:
I seem to remember seeing a spec somewhere that the lifting weight at the bow with the Hobie cart installed is something like 25 lbs.

Bob


I think I read the same thing....somewhere in a review talking about lifting it, on a trailer, top of a car (weight somewhere like 68 lbs), etc. Excellent thread from what I recall. As for weight. There are 2 things I know. The first is, the Hobie PA is probably one of the heaviest boats/kayaks there are; and #2, I'm not in the best shape of my life :D Why this matters is probably a combination of the 2, but, the other thing is, I think I can handle the weight. The reason being, my profession is a Corrections Officer. So although it is not a daily occurence to carry people around, it does happen. I would say that if I had to described my build at 6' & 270, it would be broad and stocky with some extra insulation to keep me warm :D It's a good thing that the Hobie Mirage utilizes the biggest muscles because that is probably where a lot of my weight, and strength are.

Anyway, a trailer would be ideal, however, the roof rack may be priority. I think WHEN I do get a trailer, I'm just going to buy a jet ski trailer like others do and modify/adapt it.

edit: Just had an off the wall idea :D I have a 95 Jeep Cherokee XJ which is what I primarily use for my adventures to the lake, offroad, etc....I wonder, if I were to put a suction cup homemade mount on the bottom of the lift gate, and then put an electric actuator on the gate to open it......Walla, kayak lift :D Only hassle would be to get the nose to the top of the jeep :D

Thanks for all the input so far.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:55 pm 
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There is a kayak lifting rack called a "hull-a-vator." I forget if it's made by Thule or Yakima, but it's from one of them.

It lowers on the side of your vehicle to about door top height. It features a pair of strong hydraulic pistons such as you have on hoods and liftgates will assists you in lifting the kayak on top of your vehicle. Works quite well - I've had the opportunity to try it several times. It doesn't do all the work for you, but it does do a great deal of it.

I can't say what the maximum capacity of that item is, but it might be something to look into.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:00 pm 
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Hey CurtnAz,
you will be surprised at how easy it is to pedal the PA. the only time I get tired is when I push to go 5mph for any distance, an easy speed of 2.5 to 3mph is a piece of cake! the first trip out my son and I went 9 miles as per a GPS in a Hobie Sport and Outback that we rented and this was at a high altitude lake (8200'). pedaling the PA is nothing like pedaling a bicycle.

Here is a video of the Hull a Vator in action:

I can see problems with dead lifting over 100 lbs. to get it on the Hull a Vator for one thing........

just looked at Thule's website, the Hull a vator is rated for up to 75 lbs. MSRP is 549.00.
http://www.thule.com/en/US/Products/Watersports/WatersportCarriers/897XT%20Hullavator.aspx


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:01 pm 
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CurtnAz wrote:
I think I can handle the weight.
I don't think the Pro angler will be any problem for you to lift. Lifting 1/2 at a time, as shown in the reprint below, the PA is actually easier to load overhead than the other Hobie kayaks IMO. Although the weight looks daunting on paper, the technique is what makes the difference.

A trailer is great for some users, especially for those who can conveniently launch from a ramp and park nearby; and don't mind the additional expense or storage space for the trailer. In our local situation, trailer parking is almost 1/2 mile away from the ramp; it's much easier to park a trailer-less car near the water, off-load the boat, wheel it directly to the nearest shore and launch without having to go back and re-park the car -- much faster, easier and more versatile launching method. 8)

Quote:
For all practical purposes, the weights listed below are the ones that would be most meaningful.

60 lb. for an overhead lift (estimated).
33 lb. handling weight on wheels, all trays, boxes etc installed.
27 lb. handling weight on wheels, no accessories

Loading overhead onto kayak rack from behind:
Here I positioned the stern of the boat behind the truck with a little overlap on the rear of the vehicle. Lifting the bow onto the rear rack is the most difficult aspect, requiring about 60 lb. or less of overhead dead lift.
Image

The boat sits nicely on its built in skid pads (very thoughtful Hobie!). Lift the boat by the stern handle and push. I found this much easier than I thought it would be.
Image

As you can see, even an old guy can do this, and I think my wife could do it too. (She is much younger by at least 2 years). Fortunately for her she was working when I did this. :lol:
Image


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:58 am 
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CurtnAz, I weight more than you and fish out of my PA about 45 times a year out in the Gulf of Mexico. The PA is the most stable and strongest kayak I have paddled or own.

As far as repositioning the cart to the rear handle, I wouldn't do it. That can place undue pressure on the handle and cause it to fail where it is attached to the yak. If used properly the scuppers are a good place for the cart.

Use a Hulavator to load a Pro Angler on top of a vehicle.............you got to be kidding me. Who is strong enough to pick the Pro Angler up to place it in the rack on the side of the vehicle. Trust me the PA is one tough mother's son to load on top of a vehicle. Although when towing my popup, I have to load mine on my paddled factory rack. I made some cheaters to attach to my back glass and roof top to assist me, but still it is one tough job.

Here is a pic of my loading cheaters:

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:08 pm 
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A lot of good replies so far. There have been a couple of comments on the adaptation of wheel to the rear skids idea....Trust me guys (and gals if there are any), I wouldn't do this unless I had fool proof, no fail, plan. The idea I had (which I have yet to make a diagram of) would actually place the rear wheels under the boat around the central scuppers of the rear and would utilize rails or bars of some sort to support the boat, rather than supporting the boat by the rear skids or handle. In fact, I would probably make the bracket to mount on the handle and the only weight the handle would support would be minimal to non-existent. I'm at work now but will try to draw up something and then google sketch it at home.

Anyway, as for the hullavator....NO WAY!!! No offense to those who have them, but I am not a believer in any sort of modification to a roof rack. Besides, my jeep already has an off road set up. One thing I did thing of was this though, if it could be adapted in some way:

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200316067_200316067

If that thing can lift a trailer gate, surely it could assist with a PA load :D


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