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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:03 pm 
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Location: Virginia - Pro Angler 14 owner since Feb 2010
I guess I just don't understand the big draw to motorizing the PA. One of the main things that inspired me when I discovered the Hobie Mirage Drive kayaks was that they had this wonderfully efficient drive system that would be powered by me. That was such a cool selling point and something I truly enjoy and that I answer many questions about every single time I launch or come off the water. People are really interested in the idea of getting away from gas and batteries. (I'm quite certain I've sold a few PAs from the boat ramp -- you're welcome, Hobie!) I love it because I get some great exercise while doing some awesome fishing. I feel great at the end of the day having done a little cardio. I can certainly use the exercise -- I know I'm not alone on this one. I know there are some folks who travel long distances and fight strong currents in their boats, so I won't argue that there are not benefits for certain applications, but I think once you start motoring around you'll find you don't even bother with pedaling. I think that's too bad from an enjoyment and a health perspective.

Tom, I don't want you to take offense, but from my read folks are just getting frustrated that you are dangling a system in front of them that they would love to buy or try themselves, but then yanking it away. I would say either 1) get the thing on the market now, 2) share what you've got and let people try it themselves, or 3) just stop talking about it. We are all glad you have a great system, but it doesn't do anyone here any good to keep hearing about your idea in secretive terms. If you didn't create this rig with the intent of selling it to others, then why not just give the community the benefit of what you figured out. If you do want to make some money off the idea, then come back when there is something to sell. Even if you do want to make a few bucks off the idea, and I don't fault you for that, I think you could still share the details with the community and probably get some ideas for improvements. I think it's unlikely that someone is going to steal your design -- you are much more likely to get value out of what you can learn from sharing. Good luck with it!

TDK

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The gods do not subtract from the alloted span of men's lives the hours spent fishing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:59 am 
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The draw of a motorized PA is that it allows you to travel further, faster, during those times when you can't launch near your final fishing destination. A fellow PA owner is the one that got me working on a unit for mine. I had no plans to do so but once I got underway and put it on the water I could easily see the lure of a motorized kayak, in any form.

For instance, we routinely troll an area of a lake that is about 4 miles from where we put in. We've pedaled it many times and that's fine. But with a motor moving you at 5MPH you can get there faster and do other chores while you're on your way. You can also escape bad weather more quickly, if need be. But yes, our Mirage Drives are still in place and we use them once we reach the fishing grounds.

I do think kayak tournaments will come apart once motors are allowed, however, as anyone could then take a jon boat or bass boat, remove the outboard and stick on large trolling motors and enter. Then, if you try to define what constitutes a kayak, you get in ever deeper water (no pun intended). Is a PA a kayak? What about a Mariner, or a Wave Walker? I don't envy the kayak tournament organizers. Their job is about to get tough.

Here are my answers to your final comments:

1. I have not offered it to them and never had any plans to put it on the market. Someone else is going to have to do that (and I hope they will).

2. They can't try it themselves because it's not something they can cobble together from off the shelf parts.

3. I won't talk about it here anymore. But we will continue to use ours and film some videos of them on the water for YouTube.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:21 am 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
The draw of a motorized PA is that it allows you to travel further, faster, during those times when you can't launch near your final fishing destination. A fellow PA owner is the one that got me working on a unit for mine. I had no plans to do so but once I got underway and put it on the water I could easily see the lure of a motorized kayak, in any form.

For instance, we routinely troll an area of a lake that is about 4 miles from where we put in. We've pedaled it many times and that's fine. But with a motor moving you at 5MPH you can get there faster and do other chores while you're on your way. You can also escape bad weather more quickly, if need be. But yes, our Mirage Drives are still in place and we use them once we reach the fishing grounds.

I do think kayak tournaments will come apart once motors are allowed, however, as anyone could then take a jon boat or bass boat, remove the outboard and stick on large trolling motors and enter. Then, if you try to define what constitutes a kayak, you get in ever deeper water (no pun intended). Is a PA a kayak? What about a Mariner, or a Wave Walker? I don't envy the kayak tournament organizers. Their job is about to get tough.

Here are my answers to your final comments:

1. I have not offered it to them and never had any plans to put it on the market. Someone else is going to have to do that (and I hope they will).

So, is this the reason for all the hype? Are you fishing for prospects to build your unit?

2. They can't try it themselves because it's not something they can cobble together from off the shelf parts.

No offense, but this is pretty laughable. You have no idea what the members of this forum are capable of. I've built a lot of things in my day to keep from having to buy an over-priced, mass-produced product. It doesn't take an engeneer to come up with every idea out there.

3. I won't talk about it here anymore. But we will continue to use ours and film some videos of them on the water for YouTube.


Well, instead of helping other PA owners out, you are chosing to take your ball and go home? All this talk and hype for nothing? Now do you begin to see why some people here may be put-off by you talking but never producing anything tangable to the members of the forum you have been trying to amaze?


I really have no intention of powering my PA, unless I move to the coast, but I would like to have the option. I've already planned out the motor drive for my PA, but I am always looking for ways to improve.

I hope one of these days, if you decide that no one is going to mass-produce your idea, that you may decide to throw the peons a bone and share your idea. Maybe helping a few PA owners get from point A to point B a little faster will become more important than money or just hoarding an idea for yourself.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do, and I truly hope your idea takes off like wildfire. Heck, I may even buy one for myself, or at least get a good look at it. Maybe then I can go back to school and get my Masters in Engeneering to be able to build one myself. LOL. J/K :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:35 am 
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As I have stated several times, It is being produced by a 3rd party. I have no idea when it will be on the market. It is my system and I'm sorry you feel that I am obligated to divulge the design or workings to you or anyone else - I'm not.

Anyone that is adept at such things should be able to concoct their own powered PA system without needing to see mine.

That's my last word on this particular subject.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:36 am 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
As I have stated several times, It is being produced by a 3rd party. I have no idea when it will be on the market. It is my system and I'm sorry you feel that I am obligated to divulge the design or workings to you or anyone else - I'm not.

Anyone that is adept at such things should be able to concoct their own powered PA system without needing to see mine.

That's my last word on this particular subject.


That's just fine if that is the way you want things. Just don't expect people to be receptive to you in a positive way when you hype something up and don't show people the goods. If it is such a covert project, you may have been better off keeping it to yourself until you had a patent pending or had something tangible to show.

Telling people to bring their powered PA boats to you, so you can show them how much better your system is seems to create some problems. Will you let people that bring their boats to meet you see your design, or will you keep it covered and hidden?

I just find all the secrecy a little humorous. I don't ever expect anybody to tell me something they don't want to tell, but that isn't the case with you. You obviously WANTED to tell the world about your idea, but you won't divulge any information about it. I just don't get what your point in telling everybody about it was? Is it an ego thing?

Can you tell what "3rd party" is working on the project, or is that a black-ops outfit too? You see where this is confusing to people that really want to believe you?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:04 am 
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I am a believer. I have seen it in action on the water, not just in videos.

Good luck Tom. I hope it comes to market and that the price comes in where you hope. I could budget for that amount.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:54 am 
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Xi Bowhunter wrote:

I really have no intention of powering my PA, unless I move to the coast, but I would like to have the option. I've already planned out the motor drive for my PA, but I am always looking for ways to improve.



Just out of curiosity; if you have NO intention of powering your PA, why would you make such a big tiff about Tom not sharing his design. It's his design, he can do what he wants with it.

I'm sure everyone here would like to see it, but no one is going to see it, so get over it :) Arguing about it is like arguing over lotto winnings that your second cousin's sister's aunt's friend's brother got. He's not obligated to share anything, nor is Tom. Sure, other people show their propulsion ideas, but that's because they've all been done before. Nothing is new, or innovative, or anything. They're all a trolling motor, on a kayak. Do you think that Torqeedo would have said, "Hey guys, look at this system. We think we'll call it the evolve." NO WAY in H3LL :D

I'm sure this "special part" could be CNCd or cast molded, and that's prpbably how Tom did it because as he said, injection molding costs BIG money. Furthermore, this company that Tom has in mind to create this propulsion system aint gonna do jack, if they can't make money on it, and a sh!t load of money at that. No one is going to create a $20,000 injection mold to break even. So, figure that it might cost $200 to produce the product, and they could sell it for $500. $300 profit. Now, figure how many of those they'll have to SELL, just to break even for production costs :D

My opinionated guess is, the furthest this product will go, will be the aft keel of Tom's boat, and his friends. The benefit of the Evolve (although outrageously expensive) is that it can go in ANY Hobie....not just a PA.

Everyone can form opinions of Tom's system, and believe it to be falacy, or truth....but, still doesn't change that you aint gonna see jack :D

My hope is, with these future videos, Tom will slip up and show it on clear water, on cloudy day (sunny day would produce glare) and then we may get an idea. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:40 pm 
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CurtnAz wrote:
Xi Bowhunter wrote:

I really have no intention of powering my PA, unless I move to the coast, but I would like to have the option. I've already planned out the motor drive for my PA, but I am always looking for ways to improve.



Just out of curiosity; if you have NO intention of powering your PA, why would you make such a big tiff about Tom not sharing his design. It's his design, he can do what he wants with it.

I'm sure everyone here would like to see it, but no one is going to see it, so get over it :) Arguing about it is like arguing over lotto winnings that your second cousin's sister's aunt's friend's brother got. He's not obligated to share anything, nor is Tom. Sure, other people show their propulsion ideas, but that's because they've all been done before. Nothing is new, or innovative, or anything. They're all a trolling motor, on a kayak. Do you think that Torqeedo would have said, "Hey guys, look at this system. We think we'll call it the evolve." NO WAY in H3LL :D

I'm sure this "special part" could be CNCd or cast molded, and that's prpbably how Tom did it because as he said, injection molding costs BIG money. Furthermore, this company that Tom has in mind to create this propulsion system aint gonna do jack, if they can't make money on it, and a sh!t load of money at that. No one is going to create a $20,000 injection mold to break even. So, figure that it might cost $200 to produce the product, and they could sell it for $500. $300 profit. Now, figure how many of those they'll have to SELL, just to break even for production costs :D

My opinionated guess is, the furthest this product will go, will be the aft keel of Tom's boat, and his friends. The benefit of the Evolve (although outrageously expensive) is that it can go in ANY Hobie....not just a PA.

Everyone can form opinions of Tom's system, and believe it to be falacy, or truth....but, still doesn't change that you aint gonna see jack :D

My hope is, with these future videos, Tom will slip up and show it on clear water, on cloudy day (sunny day would produce glare) and then we may get an idea. :D



Put you reading glasses on, and re-read what I posted. I would like to have the "option" to power my PA, and if I move to the coast (which is a possibility) I would want to power my PA to get me off-shore to fish.

I have to deal with blow-hards every week in my job, as I work with the public, so I hear a lot of talk and no substance on a regular basis from the people I have to deal with. I'm sorry, but this whole thread beating the drum of this "wave of the furure" seems like a lot of noise, but no music.

And, on anothe note, if this idea is so hard to build without some fancy cast-mold machine, that seems all the more reason to let people in on just a little of how it works.

I would still like to know what "3rd" party company is working on this project, so I can keep an eye out for it if they decide to move forward.

There are plenty of methods of powering kayaks out there, so if this is a legit "wave of the future", it shouldn't be hard to get someone to help get the idea off the ground. Look at all the methods of purpulsion that started to surface after the Mirage drive made it big.

I guess I will just have to keep throwing a "tiff", as long as there are big talks and no action in this thread. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:42 pm 
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RHale wrote:
I am a believer. I have seen it in action on the water, not just in videos.

Good luck Tom. I hope it comes to market and that the price comes in where you hope. I could budget for that amount.



Did he keep it under wraps, and hide the design from being seen, or are you one of the elite that got to see just how it works?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Tom is the guy that puts on the huge International rod building Expo in High Point each year. He's not known for making stuff up or exaggerating. His record is pretty strong.

I have NOT seen the unit itself. I have seen Tom and one of his buddies ripping around on Randleman lake with their powered PAs. If this is a hoax then he is being towed by either a submarine or a dolphin for hours on end.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:42 pm 
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RHale wrote:
Tom is the guy that puts on the huge International rod building Expo in High Point each year. He's not known for making stuff up or exaggerating. His record is pretty strong.

I have NOT seen the unit itself. I have seen Tom and one of his buddies ripping around on Randleman lake with their powered PAs. If this is a hoax then he is being towed by either a submarine or a dolphin for hours on end.


I know it isn't a hoax, I watched the youtube videos. What I want to know is what makes the unit so special, and a "wave of the future". Is it a prop drive, or some sort of jet-drive? I have tinkered with both. I just wonder what the difference could be that could make this unit stand above the rest.

In the youtube videos, they don't look like they are going any faster than a PA rigged with a trolling motor. Looks can be deceving, but it doesn't look any faster than other kayaks on the water. The only other advantages he could exploit would be battery life/range, and effinency, or weight (But the evolve system does a pretty good job at covering that aspect).


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:45 pm 
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Xi Bowhunter wrote:
I have to deal with blow-hards every week in my job, as I work with the public, so I hear a lot of talk and no substance on a regular basis from the people I have to deal with. I'm sorry, but this whole thread beating the drum of this "wave of the furure" seems like a lot of noise, but no music.


My guess is with how much you're whining about seeing this prototype of Tom's, you're not very good at your job in "dealing with people". **lol** It's his design, he can do what he wants, and he can share it if he wants.

When you come up with something innovative, then you can keep it to yourself. Trust me, no one, besides those of your type; are going to care. Credit is given to those who deserve it, and as said, when you design something innovative, you'll get credit for it. That's all, credit; and if you decide to share the design, you'll get appreciation.

Why would Tom have to tell you this 3rd party company? Does it really matter? What are you gonna, start e-mailing them non-stop trying to get whatever the idea is? Trust me, you'd have a better shot of getting it out of Tom. :lol:

That's great if you want to power your PA if you move to the coat. By all means, do it. Unfortunately for your sake, you'll have to do it the way everyone else does it. I like TGFs setup. Simple, easy, efficient, and cost effective.

You mention that his invention or creation is blowing a lot of noise without making any music. Funny you say that because all you seem to be doing is talking a lot without having anything to say. :mrgreen:

Let it go. It hasn't happened, it won't happen, and it never will....just have to wait for it to come out; if it does. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:48 pm 
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RHale wrote:
Tom is the guy that puts on the huge International rod building Expo in High Point each year. He's not known for making stuff up or exaggerating. His record is pretty strong.

I have NOT seen the unit itself. I have seen Tom and one of his buddies ripping around on Randleman lake with their powered PAs. If this is a hoax then he is being towed by either a submarine or a dolphin for hours on end.


:lol: :lol: :lol: I'm gonna go with Submarine....the Red October. Silent propulsion.

Okay you guys....Tom let me in on his secret. The truth is, with his career in putting on the Expo in High Point, he's had some contacts with misc. celebrities, investors, etc; and he told me the truth.

Michael Phelps is swimming in front of the boat with a rope tied on his back :D

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:11 pm 
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CurtnAz wrote:
Xi Bowhunter wrote:
I have to deal with blow-hards every week in my job, as I work with the public, so I hear a lot of talk and no substance on a regular basis from the people I have to deal with. I'm sorry, but this whole thread beating the drum of this "wave of the furure" seems like a lot of noise, but no music.


My guess is with how much you're whining about seeing this prototype of Tom's, you're not very good at your job in "dealing with people". **lol** It's his design, he can do what he wants, and he can share it if he wants.

When you come up with something innovative, then you can keep it to yourself. Trust me, no one, besides those of your type; are going to care. Credit is given to those who deserve it, and as said, when you design something innovative, you'll get credit for it. That's all, credit; and if you decide to share the design, you'll get appreciation.

Why would Tom have to tell you this 3rd party company? Does it really matter? What are you gonna, start e-mailing them non-stop trying to get whatever the idea is? Trust me, you'd have a better shot of getting it out of Tom. :lol:

That's great if you want to power your PA if you move to the coat. By all means, do it. Unfortunately for your sake, you'll have to do it the way everyone else does it. I like TGFs setup. Simple, easy, efficient, and cost effective.

You mention that his invention or creation is blowing a lot of noise without making any music. Funny you say that because all you seem to be doing is talking a lot without having anything to say. :mrgreen:

Let it go. It hasn't happened, it won't happen, and it never will....just have to wait for it to come out; if it does. :D


How am I whining? LOL. I just ask questions about why it is such a secret. What makes it better? What makes it different?

He doesn't have to tell me or anyone what 3rd party company is working on it, or anything about the idea at all. But if you post all this praise about a product, you should be ready to get asked questions about it.

You should "let it go", and let the man answer the questions directed at him and his idea for his self, as he sees fit. If he doesn't want to answer any questions, he can ignore the thread. He is the one that has been hyping-up this idea, and naturally people are curious about how it works, and why it is better. So yes, I still think it has been a lot of noise with no music.

So, if he puts on a "big rod building expo" every year, I would assume he is around a fair amount of people that are in the business of fishing and boating. How is it that he has so much access is the fishing product world, but can't get someone to commit on his design? That is where I wonder if it is all it is being made out to be.

And on a personal note, I am very good at my job, weeding through the BS to get to the bottom of whatever problem might be at hand. So please refrain from trying to make judgments about my job performance in the future. It has nothing to do with this topic.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:43 pm 
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"So, if he puts on a "big rod building expo" every year, I would assume he is around a fair amount of people that are in the business of fishing and boating. How is it that he has so much access is the fishing product world, but can't get someone to commit on his design? That is where I wonder if it is all it is being made out to be."


He has said several times that someone is working on producing it. He is not known for making stuff up. If he says it works then it works and the videos prove that it works.


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