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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:34 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 110
"I think it is fair to say that a non-factory modification (of any kind) that leads to a failure in the modified area would lead us to question our responsibility as far as warranty goes."

Matt...What are you trying to say? Have there been failures from people installing sliding mechanisms under their seats? Did Hobie's engineers actually try positioning the seat further back which caused stress failures? I'm interested to know because the idea of having a sliding seat, along with hearing positive reactions from people on this forum influenced me to purchase and install a seat slide on my 09' PA. I haven't tried it out yet but it fits nicely and slides effortlessly forward and backward, and creates enough additional clearance to make installation & removal of the seat much easier. I understand Hobie's view on warranting of non-factory modifications, but my concern is wether or not using the seat slide will actually damage my PA. And if installing this seat modification has caused failures in the PA, why hasn't anyone on Hobie's forum staff said anything about it to warn people. According to people's posts and replies that I've read, there have been no problems and everyone seems to love the modification. Just looking at the number of views to this post should give you an idea of it's popularity. I don't believe that I've seen another post that has had more views. And that tells me that people are very interested in this modification, provided it won't damage their PAs. Sooo...Whats the deal? Can adding an additional 2" in height and sliding the seat back or forward a few inches really stress the seat hold-down bolts enough to cause them to pull through the hull? Most people, I think would probably position the seat in it's regular position over the bolts while peddling the mirage drive anyway, and just adjust the seat back after they reach their destination in order to facilitate easier access to the center hatch...Do you have any technical input to add to this subject, or any advice for people that have added this modification, or for people that are thinking about making the modification?
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:19 am 
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Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 5:55 am
Posts: 111
Location: Cary, NC
Fellow PA owners,

First let me say…I love my Pro Angler. It allows me to get out and fish/explore all types of waters…and very comfortably at that, I might add. Besides fishing for fun, I fish Bass tournaments. So, there is a lot of time spent in the PA. (Normal tournaments run 8 hrs)

With that said, there were some items (in my opinion) that if addressed, would make this rig even better than it is. These items, in my mind were small, but necessary.

1) Difficult (at best) access, to the center compartment from the seated position.

2) Difficult (at best) access, to the thumbscrews that hold the seat in place.

3) When pedaling, seat always seemed to have some “play” (movement /clicking) even when tightened down. (Can be fixed by adding rubber or plastic washers to the back seat bolts)

4) Seat “buckles” were not made to last long and originals not easy to replace.
(Posted about this a while back and followed up with calls, emails and contacting my dealer…it has since been addressed and was taken care of. Replacement stainless steel part number: 84500031)

Made some calls and sent an e-mail or two to make suggestions for future versions of the Pro Angler. But pertaining to my situation, I knew I had to come up with something on my own. So, I took the seat apart and made various drawings on how to modify the seat…after a day or so, I decided to first research what was available to be purchased. Knowing that I wanted a seat slider that would only add 1” or 2” inches at most and “no swivel” …did not find anything at first. Then I started looking into the companies that build the seat extensions/slides and found what I was looking.

After ordering and installing…was very excited to share this modification with my fellow PA owners. There are no permanent changes made to the PA for this modification. (ie – no drilling) It’s simply and add on. (just need to purchase necessary hardware)

PROS :
- Added height allows easy access to the thumb screws that hold the seat in place.

- Allows more storage under the seat.

- Allows room to clean under the seat. (without removing it)

- A little easier to get from the seated to standing position. (and vise versa…depending on age…lol)

CONS:
- None to date.

In closing, I am very comfortable with this modification and feel that there is no added stress when using the seat slide that I purchased. I am still in the same position when pedaling, just 2” higher. Found that I can access the center hatch without having to move the seat back. But it’s a great option to have.

Remember folks...just apply common sense when pedaling these BIG hunks of plastic. I find, that if I pedal/push at a nice steady pace...it moves along fast enough.

These are just my "productive" opinions.

Good kayaking/fishing…and always wear protection! ; )

Regards, JoeyB


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:02 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:55 pm
Posts: 268
Matt ..... With all due respect ....... that's one of the best non answers I have ever received.

Hobie has the best reputation for quality and customer service and innovation.
In my opinion, the Mirage drive and the PA are revolutionary ......... you guys are the APPLE of Kayaks. That' s why I bought a PA and I love it and I don't even mind paying you guys and the dealer a little more for improvements.

That said ....... nothing's perfect but Hobie goes out of their way to make it perfect as shown by the free steering upgrade.

The problem experienced by many PA owners is the seeming design flaw of the seat/hatch placement which the PA owners seemly found a solution. Many installed it and love it.

I drove 2 hours to my dealer to get the PA checked out and to pay to have the steering hub and Hobie anchor trolley installed. I could have saved the time and money and installed it myself. I would have been able to fish today if I had.

I also spent $75 to buy and ship the seat slide to the dealer after discussions with him about it (and the posts here) and to have it dealer installed only to be told a week later that (per your east coast rep) it would probably void my warranty if he installed it. I ask you about this on this forum and get your non answer ........ so forgive my amazement with your answer.

I'm just trying to find out what I can and cannot do for my safety and the care on my PA. It seems to be confusing. I don't mind buying the improvements from Hobie but these improvements are not available from Hobie.

Will installing this improvement void my warranty? ....... I'm sure alot of people want to know ....... especially since there have been soo many posts and no one from Hobie has given any warnings ........

The Forum section is good for Hobie because it gives ideas about new products and even how to engineer it. Maybe a forum section on engineering findings or something like that would help Hobie owners understand what they should and should not do or play with.


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 8904
Location: Oceanside, California
Humm... I think my statement:

Quote:
I think it is fair to say that a non-factory modification (of any kind) that leads to a failure in the modified area would lead us to question our responsibility as far as warranty goes.


is pretty straight forward.

Understand that a modification does not "void" the warranty, but if you do something that is not specifically suggested by us... and it appears to cause a problem... we would question our responsibility. I don't think I can say that any more clearly.

The seat modification simply has not been tested by us.

Now... if you were to install and keep the seat at the original height... and only sit / use in the original fore and aft location... you would not be changing the original loads on the seat fasteners.

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:55 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 1988
Location: High Point, NC
Raising the seat does indeed place more stress upon not only the fasteners, but upon the structure/s they're attached to.

Perhaps the hull is capable of handling the additional stress in this amount (the weight and movement of the individual involved plays a role as well). But at some point, it won't be.

If you modify your seat and then have a problem with something related to the seat, hardware or hull where the seat is fastened, it would be unfair to expect Hobie to cover such a problem under their warranty.

.............


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 110
Tom Kirkman wrote:
Raising the seat does indeed place more stress upon not only the fasteners, but upon the structure/s they're attached to. Perhaps the hull is capable of handling the additional stress in this amount (the weight and movement of the individual involved plays a role as well). But at some point, it won't be.


Tom...I agree that raising the seat will no doubt put additional stress on the fasteners & structure...But the concern is...How much extra stress?...I do not believe that raising the seat 2" will add enough additional stress to cause a premature failure, if while peddaling, the seat is positioned directly over the hold-down fasteners. And also...Anyone could damage the fasteners if they moved around too much...And that includes with an unmodified seat. So with that in mind, I believe there is a trade-off. Add the slide...Risk possible premature failure and warranty work...But...Add the slide...Increase the comfort level of the PA...Better access to the center hatch...Adds a bit more storage capacity...Easier to get to anything that drops on the deck around the seat...Easier to stand up...And easier installation & removal of the seat.........Therefore it is my personal opinion that the pros outweigh the cons, especially when Hobie says that they haven't done any tests that prove or disprove the seat slide modification will cause structural failure...I plan on using my PA as much as possible this season with the modification. And I use my PA in the ocean where there is more structural stress conditions present. I'm a big guy so if there is a structural failure with the PA due to the seat slide I'm sure it would probably happen to me...And I will post it on this forum to warn other people if there is any kind of failure...


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:59 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:55 pm
Posts: 268
Matt ....... thanks for answering my questions ..... I think

Guess I'll have to take a chance on installing it and take a chance on Hobie helping me out if it causes a failure ............ the good thing is that Hobie does have a good Rep on replacement


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:42 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 1988
Location: High Point, NC
Saying that you do not "believe" that it will put enough additional stress on the fasteners or structure to cause a premature failure and saying that you have done the tests to "know" that it will not are two different things.

I think we have to put ourselves in Hobie's place in order to see this issue objectively. They have designed their product to withstand a certain level of use and stress. Perhaps a bit of overkill has been built in. But there is a limit beyond which a problem will certainly occur. Maybe this seat mod doesn't extend beyond that limit, but it would still be unfair to hold Hobie accountable for any warranty repair or replacement for any damage or failure that occurs in that area in a boat that has had this modification done.

That was my only point - once you begin making modifications which increase stress, wear and tear, etc., or affect the structure of the boat, you shouldn't expect Hobie to stand behind a warranty which was never intended to cover such modifications.

Other than that, I hope your seat mod works well and helps you enjoy the PA even more.


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:42 pm 
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Tom...I would not expect Hobie's warranty to cover my PA for a repair to a damaged area due to any modification that I made. I watch the forum each day for new mods that people have tried and posted here, and if any sound like a good idea, and that are structurally safe, I will try them myself using a bit of common sense and mechanical experience to guide me. For example: Around the same time frame that I had to change my steering hub to make it less sensitive to tracking adjustments, I remember thinking how nice it would be to have the steering handle repositioned to the side of my seat where my hand could rest on it for a more comfortable position when steering adjustments were needed. Then I saw a post on this forum with pictures and a fair description of how to make the mod. So...I tried it...And it has worked beautifully. If it ever breaks I will not expect Hobie to fix or replace it for free as part of the PA's warranty. The same goes for the seat slide. If it causes damage, I'll fix it myself or pay the dealer to fix it. Any mods not specifically endorsed by Hobie...Even drilling holes for installing mounts is a chance you take and hope that no failures occur as a result. You just have to use a little common sense when thinking about making a mod...And having some mechanical skills helps also unless you plan to have someone else make the mod for you.


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 1988
Location: High Point, NC
I certainly agree.


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 5:55 am
Posts: 111
Location: Cary, NC
Just a follow up...
Had the PA out for the 10th time since the seat modification and all is still rock solid.


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 6:50 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 8:35 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Falfurrias, TX
Installed mine today. Trying it out tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:10 pm
Posts: 35
Location: Southeast Texas
On mine I just drilled the holes for the seat 1 3/4" back and it worked out perfect. I didnt have to buy nothing but 4 new stainless steel bolts and it worked like a charm. Very Cheap and it works awesome.

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Brandon Boren


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:49 am
Posts: 126
Location: garwood, nj
Is there another link to find this sliding seat mod? The old link is not available, and I want to get this done. I removed the seat today simply to clean under it, what a filthy mess. I chunk bait a lot, and there's always some suprise hidden under the seat; the mod here will cure that. I LOVE my PA to no end, and this seat mod is simply wonderful no matter what anyone says. Thanks. MJ.

Never mind, I rechecked the link and they are in stock; and I ordered it!!!!
I'm on my way, thanks for posting this; it's a wonderful mod that should be done. Kudos JoeyB


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 Post subject: Re: PA Seat Modification
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 6:32 am 
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Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 8:35 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Falfurrias, TX
I've only been out once since the mod but I really like it. You definitely notice the altitude increase at first.


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