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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:57 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKSnRKLJpq0

Wow.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:19 am 
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he got broadside but he really leaned to counteract the flip...just wasnt enough


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:41 am 
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It's cool that this was captured so well on video, and even more cool that this dude posted it for us to see an learn from.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:41 am 
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SteveLIBS wrote:
It's cool that this was captured so well on video, and even more cool that this dude posted it for us to see an learn from.


Amen...awesome video SteveLIBS. You handled it very well. Thank God & your coolness under stress... you remained calm & got in safely!

Thank you for posting this.

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Cape Fear River - NC


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:30 pm 
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No that's not me. I found it on you tube is all.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:53 pm 
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Thanks SteveLIBS for posting this. Some things I learned from watching this video is not to have a flag mounted near the handle area. The easiest way to re-enter is climbing on the rear deck. It hindered him on the first attempt and trying from the side caused him to lose his cooler.
Another thing is in conditions like that, forget the hat. If you lose your hat too bad. I'm glad they made it back alive.
He did a good job having most of his boxes tied to a rope.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Sorry, I'm not entirely sympathetic, so am playing devil's advocate :)
There are certain aspects to this episode that are, IMHO, a bit wrong....
Though he says the seat in "upper" position made no difference, I can't help feel that it must have had some considerable bearing. Even in calm conditions the upper seat position makes a big diff to lateral balance and stability.
His first safety measure should have been to lower the seat.....
The ice box being used is also quite a heavy unit which would have added to the problem. I wonder how many kilos/lbs of ice/slurry were actually in the ice box as once the yak had heeled/leaned over it tended to stay over which is consistent with a lateral weight displacement ????
The ice box was also working as a sail which had been located at the wrong end of a sailboat with the wind pushing the stern sideways (actually to be downwind as per the laws of physics)and reducing his directional control. BTW, do you actually need an ice box that big on a kayak ???? :roll:
Note. He had no problem at all once the ice box was gone..... :wink:
It's a well known (and calculable) process in boating terms to asses your centre of gravity via weight and position as located on any vessel.
Put simply... weight should be centred and as low as possible at all times.
Very curious to know how his Dad got on in the "Kuda", assuming he did not get flipped, which I'm sure would have been mentioned.....
1. Dad was obviously not carrying a heap of gear
2. Dad was low down in yak
3. Dad was obviously comfortable enough out there in the same conditions to the extent that he was more interested in finding his hat than seeking shelter.
Totally understand it was a freak situation with a radical change in weather and would not like to be in that position.
I would also suggest that the Hobie guy has never been out in 50 knot winds, who would want to ??? I'd say he was experiencing about 25-35 knots.
50 knot winds will have foamy spray streaking across with waves constantly breaking.
Have a look at "Beaufort Scale" of winds/pictures to get the full idea.
Please don't get me wrong :cry: I am pointing out these things because I feel he was not prepared for those conditions which, to any and all of us is a very valuable lesson.
I, for one, am of the opinion that you must always prepare for the worst, and expect the best, or vice/versa :D
No, I'm not being "Holier than thou", just realistic.....
Love to hear other comments :D


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:39 am 
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rodrocket wrote:
Sorry, I'm not entirely sympathetic, so am playing devil's advocate :)
There are certain aspects to this episode that are, IMHO, a bit wrong....
Though he says the seat in "upper" position made no difference, I can't help feel that it must have had some considerable bearing. Even in calm conditions the upper seat position makes a big diff to lateral balance and stability.
His first safety measure should have been to lower the seat.....
The ice box being used is also quite a heavy unit which would have added to the problem. I wonder how many kilos/lbs of ice/slurry were actually in the ice box as once the yak had heeled/leaned over it tended to stay over which is consistent with a lateral weight displacement ????
The ice box was also working as a sail which had been located at the wrong end of a sailboat with the wind pushing the stern sideways (actually to be downwind as per the laws of physics)and reducing his directional control. BTW, do you actually need an ice box that big on a kayak ???? :roll:
Note. He had no problem at all once the ice box was gone..... :wink:
It's a well known (and calculable) process in boating terms to asses your centre of gravity via weight and position as located on any vessel.
Put simply... weight should be centred and as low as possible at all times.
Very curious to know how his Dad got on in the "Kuda", assuming he did not get flipped, which I'm sure would have been mentioned.....
1. Dad was obviously not carrying a heap of gear
2. Dad was low down in yak
3. Dad was obviously comfortable enough out there in the same conditions to the extent that he was more interested in finding his hat than seeking shelter.
Totally understand it was a freak situation with a radical change in weather and would not like to be in that position.
I would also suggest that the Hobie guy has never been out in 50 knot winds, who would want to ??? I'd say he was experiencing about 25-35 knots.
50 knot winds will have foamy spray streaking across with waves constantly breaking.
Have a look at "Beaufort Scale" of winds/pictures to get the full idea.
Please don't get me wrong :cry: I am pointing out these things because I feel he was not prepared for those conditions which, to any and all of us is a very valuable lesson.
I, for one, am of the opinion that you must always prepare for the worst, and expect the best, or vice/versa :D
No, I'm not being "Holier than thou", just realistic.....
Love to hear other comments :D


Hmmmm. You would love to hear other comments. Well I shall apease you there as many statements you have made are purely your opinion and wrong.

I frequent an Australian forum VYak.net and a link was posted to this thread so I joined purely to respond.

My name is Corey and that is Me and my video your referring to. This happened on the 25th jan 2013.

The plan was for a bit of a plastic session close to the boat ramp and I had waited a week before coming to this location as the weather had not been suitable. So I picked my day and waited for low swell and calm wind and no forecasted wind direction changes and consistent temperatures.

My father is 60 and fit as a fiddle. He was in my other yak which is not a kuda as you claimed. It's a Cobra fish n dive. Whilst dad was fishing for his hat the winds were only 25/30 knts he gave up and started to paddle toward me but the wind increased and he actually could not gain an inch forward so let the wind push him into a gully in a rocky shore. Don't know how to describe it. I was out further watching him and could not go his way.

50knot winds were confirmed as a warning came shortly after I beached the yak. The boats that were coming in actually told me about the announcement that they received. These were gusts not constant winds at 50.

The flag played no part in getting in the way it was the esky.
The 60L esky had 1 bag of ice and a few drinks and a 2/3kg parrot fish/wrasse.
Weight on the back of a PA actually aids in steering and control as it drops the rudder into a more usable position.
The wind pushing the esky was not what turned and moved the pa it was the swell and chop pushing from behind. The turn heavily with rear swell and even no wind.

The seat position made as much difference as it would if 8 blokes picked my yak up and tipped me upside down. There was emence momentum that hit me like a freight train. I actually went back out an hour later once the weather calmed alot. Probably to the 35 knots. Seat down no gear and it did me again.

The second last wave that went past turned me side on was a bump steer part of the pa s flaw. This set me up for the next large one to blind side mesquare on with a big gust. Gauging by my sounder the swell was 2m fluctuating on its depth.

I initially went to load myself from the rear but the esky was in the way so I tried the side which I have done before as practice but this didn't work in this condition.

The hull didn't take much water but the front tub more than half filled I guess when righting the water caught an edge stretched the bungee and scooped it up the closed again. I plan on adding an extra no stretch strap.
I had 5 rods and that was one I thought was locked in but with all the comotion I over looked one.

I was very selective when I went out and I intentionally stayed close to the cove due to the unpredictability. There's not too many things I would change. (censored) happens and likely hood of us being in dire straights was scarce.

I've put myself up for scrutiny and I accept that. But I saw this and decided to set it right.

I'm a 30 yo bloke and I have no intentions of living life wrapped in cotton wool. Pa's are not designed for ocean but the cobra was so I put my less experienced father in it. And there was no chance I was going to (censored) around and alter my seat position once that weather hit. Riding it out was the only choice. Granted it turned to (censored) but that's life

I just hope others take realistic posatives from this vid as most have praised many aspects of the situation. I was (censored) myself, panic and stress set in and I was exhausted as most of the time I could not move forward in the wind or steer. I cut probably 45mins of video from this. But given all that good luck making 100% perfect decisions.

We're never 100% safe if we were we would be at home. And F that.
Cheers Corey.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:02 am 
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Rodrocket, you trying to make this another one of those famous 20 pages threads on here that never seem to go away? :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:53 pm 
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Islandspeed.
No not trying for new thread record. :D
Corey,
Great that you gave more details as there weren"t enough on the vid to satisfy my queries.
It's rare to actually see an excellent video of a potentially dangerous situation.
My intention was to question why and what could have been done to have avoided the incident (capsizing) which could happen to any of us.
I have watched the vid several times and am still disturbed by the hull being uncontrollable at certain points. Not a crit of you :)
I would still like to hear opinions from other people, preferably with logical reasoning as, I guess I found it absolutely fascinating and frightening.
I had a PA14 which behaved badly in crap conditions from time to time and now have a Pa12 which has better manners IMHO, so it's all genuine interest from me as I could be in exactly this situation myself.
You did a brilliant job of sorting yourself out and I never criticized any of your efforts. In fact as others have said, you are to be praised. :)
re; cottonwool wrapping. Of course you are right :D
Cheers,
I


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:10 pm 
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Cheers rod I appreciate it.

Wind and chop sees the pa 12 very flighty on the surface. I feel they have very little footprint below the waterline. When you look at yours in the water you will notice there is little rudder extended in the water. Hence I pro ably would have had betsf tracking and the nose would have ridden over swell better if I had 20L of water in that esky. I actually normaly have the gopro mounted on the esky which would have had a much better perpective but probably would have lost the gopro if it was.

Everytime even a moderate but large swell comes behind the PA 12 it is bump steered and you are kept very busy on the rudder control. If not you are turned completely side on to it. This is a factor even with no wind.

I still love the PA12 and am not criticizing it these are just the encountered factors when it's moved out of its designed purpose.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:02 am 
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I can not comment on the 12 PA because my 3 years of experience on a PA is with a 14'. That being clarified, let me say the PA is not a stable surf or high wave kayak.

I have only flipped my PA once in deep water and that was due to it being 2/3 full of water in the hull.............a bad crack let the water in.

However, I have flipped my 14" PA so many times in the surf while attempting to reach the beach that I have had to learn to always back through the surf. That way I can keep my bow into the waves and prevent flipping. I have learned to paddle very good backwards through the surf zone. I do this because I got tired of having to constantly be cleaning reels.

Don't get me wrong, I love my PA and although I have two other kayaks, I use my PA 99% of the time. But if the wind/waves are really rough, I will either use my X-Factor or stay on the beach.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Knogg,
thanks for posting the video, we can talk all day about self rescue, but your video is the real deal.
Also, thanks for coming on the forum and giving us more insight to the situation.....we can speculate about the circumstances surrounding the event, but it's all hotair till we hear it from the "star" of the video.
Again, Thanks! Image

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:42 pm 
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Excellent :D :D :D


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:52 am 
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Lt.FireDog wrote:
Knogg,
thanks for posting the video, we can talk all day about self rescue, but your video is the real deal.
Also, thanks for coming on the forum and giving us more insight to the situation.....we can speculate about the circumstances surrounding the event, but it's all hotair till we hear it from the "star" of the video.
Again, Thanks! Image


So,
No Hobie "gurus" are forthcoming with any observations as to why this has happened in conditions which may well be experienced by any PA owners other than "it's all just hot air" until the "star" makes comments.
That's actually not very helpful. It's also meaningless.
What the hell does that mean ?
It just seems to be a simply accepted process with, yes, strong winds 25-35 knots and wind waves to match
Corey (bless his soul) maintains that his Hobie PA12 behaves like this in crap conditions as standard.
What are we to assume ???????
We own craft that will not tolerate these conditions ?
These conditions can occur (obviously) at any time !
The rudder system will not give adequate control in a wave ?
Expect to capsize ?
Our craft have a inherent deficiency in these conditions ?
Do we only use them if conditions are less than what is shown in video ?
Hope to god conditions don't ever turn to crap ?
Do we have our heads buried in the sand and ignore the issues before us ?
I'm sorry, I love my PA/s, but nobody has come up with any excuse/explanation/reason to satisfy my own concerns with the ctaft behaviour in this event, which I think is a problem to anyone who is out there in the elements on a PA12.
Cheers,
Rod


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