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Size of Standard Sails
Standard Sail Size Information Would Be Helpful To Me. 25%  25%  [ 2 ]
This information should be provided by Hobie Inc. 25%  25%  [ 2 ]
I have considered modifying or experimenting with modified sails. 25%  25%  [ 2 ]
I am interested in sail construction. 25%  25%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 8
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:59 pm 
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wildlatin wrote:
...

Why doesn't Hobie just provide (at least reasonably detailed) sail dimensions- foot, luff, leach lengths of jibs and mainsails for all models? Design drawings with batten placement, etc. would be most helpful but at least a simple table of dimensions? I really doubt that it would be a loss of valuable proprietary corporate assets at this time in the catamaran market.

I haven't seen anything like that here in the forum or in any official Hobie pdf links, but it's not like the information is secret or difficult, right? It has to be available for manufacturing.

Why should Hobie do this?
There is a huge market in used sails, some from very similar boats, and people who have the motivation- likely but not always brought on by poverty- to make do with what they can afford. Sometimes you can get a deal. It would be very helpful to know the standard sizes. Would Hobie really care even if I made my own sails? This is admittedly, with some experience, a very difficult proposition...

Some here will be horrified that anyone would stoop so low as to become non-Hobie-sanctioned, disqualified from racing, etc., aside from the fact that any used or modified sails will likely not be as effective... but they can still be fun and interesting.

There are some Hobie sailors- seemingly the minority on these forums- who are barely making it financially and still want to sail their boats recreationally using whatever they can afford and not caring much about tradition or certification.


Does anyone else think that a reliable source of sail size information- from the manufacturer- would be very helpful?

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Raise your sail one foot, and you get ten feet of wind.
起你的一只帆,和你10英尺的。 -- Chinese Proverb
William D. Latinette @ Latrobe, PA, USA w. H14 Turbo X 2... wildlatin23@hotmail.com


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:38 pm 
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What's so tough about measuring them yourself?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:39 pm 
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wildlatin wrote:
wildlatin wrote:
...
Does anyone else think that a reliable source of sail size information- from the manufacturer- would be very helpful?


If you wanted an aftermarket sail, why would you care about the original?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:25 pm 
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Surf City Catamarans wrote:
What's so tough about measuring them yourself?

Are you saying that I should visit a dealer and tell them, "I want to measure the sails on your H16, H17, H18..." ?

I'm describing having the sail sizes- like a diagram with dimensions- for the different Hobie family boats. This would allow someone to see and know how much modification would be needed to a particular sail- say a Prindle 16- to possibly make it work on their boat.

Maybe it wouldn't be used by too many people but it seems like a convenient dataset to have available here.

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Raise your sail one foot, and you get ten feet of wind.
起你的一只帆,和你10英尺的。 -- Chinese Proverb
William D. Latinette @ Latrobe, PA, USA w. H14 Turbo X 2... wildlatin23@hotmail.com


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:30 pm 
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Karl Brogger wrote:
If you wanted an aftermarket sail, why would you care about the original?

Maybe I got a deal on a high-profile mainsail from another brand of cat and would like to see how feasible it would be to use on my H16, H14, etc.? It's not something that would happen everyday, but considering that this forum is read all over the world...

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Raise your sail one foot, and you get ten feet of wind.
起你的一只帆,和你10英尺的。 -- Chinese Proverb
William D. Latinette @ Latrobe, PA, USA w. H14 Turbo X 2... wildlatin23@hotmail.com


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:49 pm 
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The problem with the poll at the top of this thread is that it does not offer us the opportunity to select a box that says, "I approve of the way Hobie controls quality and maintains the one design nature of our classes and believe that Hobie should reap the benefit of the R&D work they've done to design and manufacture sails that are optimal for their boats". The poll is steeply slanted towards one agenda.

Hobies are designed to be ONE DESIGN sailboats. Fragmenting the classes with sails built by various manufacturers or even boat owners doing their own science projects chips away at that one design quality. Personnally, I wouldn't buy anything other than a class legal sail even if I didn't race. Hobie (or in the case of the 20, the Hobie liscensed contractor) builds top quality sails. I've been considering buying a good used 16 or 17. When I search through the classifieds, I don't consider boats without Hobie sails. Not only am I concerned about being class-legal, but having Hobie sails maintains resale value by making used boats marketable to a wider range of potential buyers.

From another perspective, Hobie sails are a product of the resources that the Hobie Cat company spent in the R&D effort necessary to design sails that are optimal for their boats. Why would anyone feel that Hobie should be compelled to share their proprietary designs? If you are determined to proceed down this path, like Jeremy said, measure a sail, get to work, knock yourself out.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:24 am 
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MVD wrote:
The problem with the poll at the top of this thread is that it does not offer us the opportunity to select a box that says, "I approve of the way Hobie controls quality and maintains the one design nature of our classes and believe that Hobie should reap the benefit of the R&D work they've done to design and manufacture sails that are optimal for their boats". The poll is steeply slanted towards one agenda.

Hobies are designed to be ONE DESIGN sailboats. Fragmenting the classes with sails built by various manufacturers or even boat owners doing their own science projects chips away at that one design quality. Personnally, I wouldn't buy anything other than a class legal sail even if I didn't race. Hobie (or in the case of the 20, the Hobie liscensed contractor) builds top quality sails. I've been considering buying a good used 16 or 17. When I search through the classifieds, I don't consider boats without Hobie sails. Not only am I concerned about being class-legal, but having Hobie sails maintains resale value by making used boats marketable to a wider range of potential buyers.

From another perspective, Hobie sails are a product of the resources that the Hobie Cat company spent in the R&D effort necessary to design sails that are optimal for their boats. Why would anyone feel that Hobie should be compelled to share their proprietary designs? If you are determined to proceed down this path, like Jeremy said, measure a sail, get to work, knock yourself out.

Your points about the possible responses are valid. I should have predicted the desire for such an option based on previous discussions but seemingly cannot change or add now.

As far as sharing the proprietary, stating the simple sail dimensions without actual details of construction is not going to damage that, more a convenience for the few customers who might be interested in modifying a Hobie sail from another model to their uses.

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Raise your sail one foot, and you get ten feet of wind.
起你的一只帆,和你10英尺的。 -- Chinese Proverb
William D. Latinette @ Latrobe, PA, USA w. H14 Turbo X 2... wildlatin23@hotmail.com


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:32 am 
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If I had a Prindle sail and wanted to use it on my H16, I think I'd just raise it as and accept that it'll have a different cut. You won't go class racing with it anyway, so what does it matter if the dimensions are a little different? However, you may find that the bolt ropes on the luff or foot of the sail are differerent in diameter and have to replace them so they'll fit in tracks in the mast and boom. You may have to replace the clew/tack plates as well so they'll accomodate the Hobie style outhaul line and gooseneck. I'm not familiar with Prindle systems so I don't know how compatible they'll be with a Hobie. But I'd focus on replacing hardware so you can attach the sail rather then try to recut it. That seems like a lot of effort for little gain.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:09 am 
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wildlatin wrote:
Are you saying that I should visit a dealer and tell them, "I want to measure the sails on your H16, H17, H18..." ?

No I think Jeremy was telling you (in the nicest possible way) that if you want the dimensions, then get the sails and measure them yourself - and keep the dealer out of it.

wildlatin wrote:
As far as sharing the proprietary, stating the simple sail dimensions without actual details of construction is not going to damage that, more a convenience for the few customers who might be interested in modifying a Hobie sail from another model to their uses.

Whose "customers" are you referring to? Hobie Cat's customers are the dealers it sells boats to. The dealer's customers are the people that buy the new boats and accessories. I don't see either of these groups needing the sail diagrams.

What benefit would they gain by providing these diagrams? None that would pay the bills. Why would they do this? If it doesn't translate into more sales, then it's not going to get done.

The only people that would benefit from this would be sailmakers - who would relish having Hobie Cat do the grunt work for them - at no cost.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:21 am 
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MBounds wrote:
What benefit would they gain by providing these diagrams? None that would pay the bills. Why would they do this? If it doesn't translate into more sales, then it's not going to get done.

Pretty much sums it up.

What you're asking for could be likened to calling up Ford and asking them if the rear axle on some old Chevy will bolt up to your Mustang. I wouldn't expect anything less than a "how the hell should we know?" response.

Seriously, the data you're asking for really isn't that hard to get. Take out a tape measure and measure the length of your mast, boom, etc and do some homework to see if the sails you're looking at will fit. Or make friends with local Hobie sailors and measure their sails. This is the kind of thing that you have to do when making things custom.

Hobie is in business to make money, and part of the way they (or any company for that matter) does that is by not publicly sharing propriatery information.

sm


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:39 pm 
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MBounds wrote:
wildlatin wrote:
Are you saying that I should visit a dealer and tell them, "I want to measure the sails on your H16, H17, H18..." ?

No I think Jeremy was telling you (in the nicest possible way) that if you want the dimensions, then get the sails and measure them yourself - and keep the dealer out of it.



Actually, what I'm saying, is for a couple a hundred bucks, I'll hold the dumb end of the tape. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Hobie's doing it just fine as it is. If you do have a 14, 16 and 18 measure them yourself like everyone else suggests you do, read some books and start stitching. Sound more like you may be looking to make some sales (sails) to other people.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:54 pm 
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MBounds wrote:
Whose "customers" are you referring to? Hobie Cat's customers are the dealers it sells boats to. The dealer's customers are the people that buy the new boats and accessories. I don't see either of these groups needing the sail diagrams.

What benefit would they gain by providing these diagrams? None that would pay the bills. Why would they do this? If it doesn't translate into more sales, then it's not going to get done.

The only people that would benefit from this would be sailmakers - who would relish having Hobie Cat do the grunt work for them - at no cost.

srm wrote:
...
What you're asking for could be likened to calling up Ford and asking them if the rear axle on some old Chevy will bolt up to your Mustang. I wouldn't expect anything less than a "how the hell should we know?" response.

Seriously, the data you're asking for really isn't that hard to get. Take out a tape measure and measure the length of your mast, boom, etc and do some homework to see if the sails you're looking at will fit. Or make friends with local Hobie sailors and measure their sails. This is the kind of thing that you have to do when making things custom.

Hobie is in business to make money, and part of the way they (or any company for that matter) does that is by not publicly sharing propriatery information.

buxton wrote:
Hobie's doing it just fine as it is. If you do have a 14, 16 and 18 measure them yourself like everyone else suggests you do, read some books and start stitching. Sound more like you may be looking to make some sales (sails) to other people.

I hereby withdraw my naive proposal that Hobie Inc. provide me or any other unauthorized individual with any minute level of information describing its highly proprietary sail technologies. I have been kindly reminded that I am dealing with a typical corporate entity whose sole attention is to the bottom line. This request was not made with any competing commercial purpose in mind.

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Raise your sail one foot, and you get ten feet of wind.
起你的一只帆,和你10英尺的。 -- Chinese Proverb
William D. Latinette @ Latrobe, PA, USA w. H14 Turbo X 2... wildlatin23@hotmail.com


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:24 am 
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If Hobie started giving away their proprietary designs to their competitiors they wouldn't be The Hobie Cat Company for long. The sailboat business, or any other leisure oriented business, can't be easy in a recession (not sure we ever came out of the last one). Any business that wants to continue as a going concern must pay attention to the bottom line.

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Mark Van Doren
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H16 #112205 (Richard Petty Signature Edition)
H14T #47787
H20 #647 (sold)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:53 am 
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wildlatin :
I design and make most of my own sails, it's a heck of a lot of work and engineering, and very easy to get it wrong. I only do it because it's part of my hobby and I like using my hands and mind designing and making stuff (I'm a design engineer and master craftsman). I've designed and built many things just for the fun of it ( helicopters, racing hydroplanes, an airplane, many race cars, etc) all just for the fun of it.

If I counted my engineering time and labor hours, my own sails cost me triple what a commercial sail costs. Thats not including the $40k computer system I design on and the very expensive sewing equipment needed to sew sails (my Pfaff machine was around $2k), plus the huge layout area and tables required.

If I had to guess I would estimate 75% of a sails cost is the cost of the sailcloth and raw materials, unless you plant your own dacron trees in your yard and grow your own( LOL) and get a loom, you can't work around that cost. I read every book I could find on sail design for a year or two before attempting to make my first sail.

However if this interests you as a hobby there are several places to start.

A company called Sailrite has very good instructional videos and sell pre-cut panels and designs that you can make yourself. ( http://www.sailritesails.com/videoselections.aspx ) They also sell all the materials.

There are free sail design programs available on the web (just google sailcut CAD) or go to this link ( http://www.sailcut.com/Sailcut_CAD). Most local colleges offer engineering programs in fluid dynamics if you really want to get into it, many colleges offer degree programs on the subject. You could offer to intern at a sail shop, but I would think you would need a formal engineering education prior just so you can do and understand the math and concepts (tons of math involved). Otherwise you will end up being a gopher and delivery driver for them. Hope this helps you.
Bob


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