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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:12 pm 
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MVD wrote:
There have been a couple of comparisons between designing cars and sailboats throughout the course of this thread. I don't think that's an apples to apples comparison because the changes in automotive technology have been much more dramatic over the last 35 years than in beachcat technology.


I would say that's a fairly subjective statement. At some level, you could argue that cars have changed very little over the last 35+ years too... four wheels, four seats, a motor and a steering wheel, you turn the key and it takes you where you want to go. But in reality, it doesn't take Glenn Ashby to tell you there's a huge difference between a Hobie 16 and a modern beach cat.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Hobie 18. I've sailed them for over 20 years and currently own two. They're great boats, but I don't see them as the boat that will attract new sailors or to reinvigorate the one-design racing scene no matter how hard Hobie/HCA tries. The same goes for the Hobie 16. From a racing standpoint, it is very limited, particularly when it comes to range of crew weights and modern features (of which it basically has none).

If you want to attract youth, you need a boat that will attract their attention, and I think that means a modern design with a third sail is mandatory. But it also needs to be a boat that the parents of the family can take the kids out and putz around on weekends and take to a regatta or two here and there without breaking the bank. At the same time, it should be a boat that experienced racers would consider switching over to and still fulfill their competitive needs. It's a tall order, not doubt. Roto-boats do not fit this criteria, nor do the H16 or H18. The Pearl may not either, but it's the closest thing I've seen so far.

sm


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:56 pm 
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gino wrote:
from now until next october Hobie should be in the san francisco bay area pimping their cats, and the euro models as well.


+++++1

I for one, in Division 3 of California, would volunteer my time sailing for Hobie at any event(s) in the SF bay over the next year. I am very sure many other Division 3 members would Join Me. We need some cool sails and maybe about 6 or so boats to make a presents and statement.

gino wrote:
If you want to attract youth, you need a boat that will attract their attention, and I think that means a modern design with a third sail is mandatory.


SRM...Perfect

srm wrote:
However, the highest priority needs to be designing boats aimed at getting new kids and families into sailing.


What boats work for what?
Does the Bravo and Wave work to teach kids and beginning sailors? Does the Getaway work for the Family? I say these boats are here but unavailable. Yes, unavailable. Where would a new sailor see them or go to get one? A resort in Mexico? I live in CA and the closest (Sailing) dealer is a four hour drive from me. :(

These boats should be sold at Costco or West Marine. Parts should be made available on-line. Ok, Maybe not the Getaway but anything simpler than that.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:25 pm 
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optikid wrote:
flatlander wrote:
Hobie needs a boat that looks (ala the AC boat design, swept back bows, square top sail), and is, fast.

a 14 foot(i think thats the size to fit in your garage, maybe the mast is 2 part?) catamaran that you can add a spinnaker, trapeze and jib. and and could have smaller main sails like Europe offers for the 16.
Image

looks good "kid"
two part mast would be OK
what's the wire thinghie in front? think jam the mast in the front beam and go
slip on sail, ala Laser (remember, instant gratification)
trapeze? no way, a hiking boat with rolled off and padded deck between the beams
daggerboards? maybe, but less parts = quicker...build skegs in the hulls
no jib or spinnaker sails, dilutes the product (complicated and takes too long)
13 to 14 feet, some engineer will have to figure out beam/sail area/mast height
100 to 125 pounds would be easy enough to throw around

this about a "One Design"?
Opti (1947) Sunfish (1951) Hobie 16 (1969) Laser (1970)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:12 am 
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I like the points brought up about the entry boats, hobie has some sweet big advanced design boats already. The hobie community doesn't need to be sold on the new boats, it's the kids and non-sailors that do. Something that can be purchased and setup by the ubber beginner that won't self destruct or kill them, yet will also be entertaining enough to be sailed by more advanced sailors. They won't be able to learn any of the cool racing tricks if they're only sailing with other super beginner folk... it takes some guys really pushing their stuff to inspire the newbies to get into it and learn how to do it themselves.

The garage boat is probably the key here. Some little boat with Hobie 18 durability and fun with the simplicity of a laser or... hobie monocat 12.

I have an old monocat that is well past its prime, it's fun to putt around in and you can fly a hull. It has two part mast and full pivoting mast and shrouds and such. The hull/hulls are horribly designed, but the size is beautiful. It can fit on my Hobie 18 trailer under the 18. Something in that class can get people/kids hooked. A bunch could be loaded onto a trailer or into a truck and youth fleets could blow up. Small parts=less weight, usually less money. Something that might be good to solo as an adult or have youth crew. If it has features of larger boats, like my monocat, new sailors can get used to raising the mast and sail in a normal fasion on a boat that require on person to rig and can be rigged in 15 min or less.

It also needs to have the traits of the larger boats, the america's cup boats, the spinnaker flying super boats. Hull shape... sail shape... tunability. So that a new sailor can get more than a couple of seasons out of her before she is outgrown.

Hobie


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:23 am 
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in reality, the key to the success will come from an agressive, planned marketing campaign, if that's what Hobie wants. when I began sailing Hobie Cats in 1977, there was already enough exposure in mainstream press. that has not been the case for a long time. (a comparison analogy is Lionel trains, when was the last time you saw an ad or commercial for those?). depending on whom Hobie decides is their target market, new or experienced sailors, will depend how they'll market. in either case, without that marketing Hobie Cat will remain largely unknown to the adventuring public.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:54 am 
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[quote="flatlander"]
Oh yeah? Then who are we looking for? to join us in this [quote][b]

No need to defend. I actually said that I agree with your point regarding the marketing of a new design. :) I was just light heartedly pointing out that there are many thrill seeking kayakers who like to sail fast as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:23 am 
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I think us 70 yr olds are having too much fun with our tandem Islands to even notice you guys. I for one keep my TI in my garage, and throw it on my roof every weekend, to go out and just have fun out on the water. I don't need to compete in sanctioned events with strict (stuffy) rules to go out and have fun. I use the boat for all things water related, scuba diving, fishing, Island hopping, running river rapids (mild), lobster and crabbing, and just going out with the family on a nice day and just sailing.
We spend half our time in the Gulf, and the other half around Key West, where we are out scuba diving off our TI whenever possible, or just sailing around the islands, a good day for us is covering 40-50 miles.

Of course my TI is modified slightly so I can get a little more performance over the stock model which can be a little boring for us 70 yr olds in the normal low winds around here. I have a 35 sq ft jib and a 135 sq ft spin all on rotofurlers, and can handle the boat all by my myself, it only takes one or two seconds to deploy either the spin or the jib, or put them away. Even though the plaque on the hull states 2 passengers, we have had 3 or 4 adults out many times with no ill effects (two in the seats and two on the tramps). The boat performs suprisingly well even when loaded with people. I have way over 2000 sailing miles on my TI's rigged as they are with no major difficulties, and have been in some pretty tough conditions on many occasions. The boat is suprisingly durable and sea worthy ( for a kayak).
If you ask me what is a motivating factor to get more people out onto the water and just having fun, my opinion is versatile boats like the TI are what people are interested in buying these days. Most of us are too busy out having fun with our boats than to gather and sit around yacht clubs talking about days gone by (we are doing what we like to do)
I think Hobie Cat company is on the right track, and I think the sales numbers of these types of boats is showing that people are wanting to get back out on the water and have fun (without their powerboats, jet ski's, or really expensive sailboats that you can't throw on your car and be in the water in under 15 minutes).
My personal opinion is if Hobie comes out with another 49er or Nacra 17 class of boat it's not going to attract a lot of new sailers, and who wants to spend $30 grand just to go out and have a little fun on the water.
There may be a few who might be interested in a "one design" for this class of boat (similar to the one design Windriders or Weta's but way better). This is my only reason for responding at all to this thread.
Just look at the sales figures for SUP's and sailing kayaks these days, we are all the 70 yr olds you talk about just out having fun ( no rules).

If you google extreme Tandem Island you will get 3 million hits on Google (the first 3 are posted below), I don't want to have to post all 3 million ( LOL)

If you google extreme Hobie cat you get 207 thousand hits

Here are a couple videos of us 70 yr olds just having fun on our sailboats (they look young for their ages)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iML3um_biaU&feature=related[/youtube]





Last edited by fusioneng on Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:41 am 
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AI/TI's are compromise boats. They can do it all, but are not very high performance when it comes to sailing. Under-powered comes to my mind when I look at them with the cute lil sails they have :mrgreen:
I think a "Waveish" boat that was designed for speed instead of for being a rookie rental boat would be killer.

Roto tough, but with fast slippery hulls, and a bigger sail and trapeze wire(s) cause you actually need em to hold the boat down!

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Last edited by hobiesrock on Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:10 am 
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+1 hobiesrock
I have not sailed the TI, only the AI
IMHO, the AI is lacking the TI amas
when you sheet in (the AI) it buries the ama :x
different strokes for different folks, after all they are still KAYAKS :wink:

we know the 70, 60, 50, and 40 year olds are good with Hobie
how do we get the 20 & 30 year olds hooked?
(and have something exciting enough for us "old farts" to get wet on a week night)

no worries Murph_PEI only building off your post, I could have done without the "oh yeah?" my apologies Sir.

great thread, keep it coming boys


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:03 pm 
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+2 hobiesrock

No offense to fusioneng, but after reading your post I feel like I've fallen down and hit my head. I can't even begin to see what a sailing kayak has to do with this discussion thread?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:09 pm 
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ftlauderdale16 wrote:
I can't even begin to see what a sailing kayak has to do with this discussion thread?


Me neither. I thought the topic at hand was design criteria for a new one-design racing catamaran that would appeal to the masses... a modern version of the Hobie 16/18. If that is a sailing kayak, then we're all in trouble. :cry:

sm


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:44 pm 
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ftlauderdale16 :
Sorry for horning in on your thread, but I thought you guys were making suggestions as to what Hobie should do business wise regarding a new one design boat that Hobie could introduce that gets new people interested in sailing Hobies again.
I was just trying to point out that the TI is out there already and very popular in the market. If Hobie were to introduce an improved design (super TI, 2 ft wider with a 120 sq ft mainsail, Spinnaker, and a Jib (a little better performance over the current design is needed)) and present it as a one design (similar to what Windrider and Weta did), they might get new interest by a very large group of 'new age' sailers on an already very popular boat (look at the sales numbers) to organize and start wanting to compete against one another (in their own one design class of course). I don't believe there is much out there right now as far as organization trying to tailer this design into a new one design class. Some of these people will of course want to move up to cat class sailing as they advance.
After all it's just a kayak right.

Thats all I won't say anymore.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:18 pm 
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ftlauderdale16 wrote:
I can't even begin to see what a sailing kayak has to do with this discussion thread?


Even those of us who are not funs of of AI/TI should recognize attributes of a successfully sail boat design:

1. Innovative and new. Trimaran sailing kayak + very efficient MirageDrives
2. Ease of handling and quick to rig, TA is only 190lb. 20 min trailer to water claimed.
3. Carbon content. TI has 2 part carbon mast
4. Affordable AI $3900 and TA $5500
5. Couple and family oriented. TA can be single handled or accommodate 2 adults and 2 kids, if equipped with a trampoline

This is very relevant to this topic :!:

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Last edited by jackB on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:24 pm 
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I have to say for my retired lifestyle the Tandem Island works perfect. I take it out almost every day. I can store it on my patio, drop in the water by myself, sail 600 pounds of me and grandkids, and if the wind dies, peddle or paddle back to shore. Just my humble opinion.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUmwRbO57GY&hd=1[/youtube]

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:48 am 
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ftlauderdale16 wrote:
No offense to fusioneng, but after reading your post I feel like I've fallen down and hit my head. I can't even begin to see what a sailing kayak has to do with this discussion thread?


When I started this post it was with the intent of discussing "One Design" Catamarans. As you can see from the death of this thread, Kayaks were not the intended discussion.

While I can understand the enthusiasm of the Kayak sailors, I believe their discussions belong in a different subject topic or board index.

"One Design" boats are for racing in the established Hobie Fleets of which I am part of Division 3 (Northern California). Our Division seems to be sustaining and thriving with 11 points regattas and we are proud to have healthy H16, H18, H20 fleets. Our last Regatta in the SF Bay last weekend had more H20s and H18s than H16s.

What I know is that the H18s and the H20s have an expiration date because of Hobie not building them anymore. The Growth or sustainability of our Fleets can not be sustained long term with the H16 only. That is clear by the choice of the fleet members continuing to sail boats that should be expired (i.e. H18).

"What's Next" is not a problem for Kayaks because Hobie has a good focus on this group. It has been a profitable, sustainable business. Half of the potential (Hobie Loyal) Catamaran sailors do not have a new product to choose from.

The premise of this post was to discuss a boat that could be the next Hobie One design that our Catamaran fleets could support and is approachable to new sailors. Not the H16, as that class will continue to thrive as long as our fleets promote youth and new sailors (whole different topic).

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H20 '96 "20/20 Vision"
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