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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:32 am 
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Hobie 17 and 18 North American Championships
Cottonwood Cove Resort, Lake Mohave, NV
October 21-26, 2012

On Saturday the 20'th, i was kite boarding at 6-mile on lake Mohave ; it was blowing
near 30mph all day and i got in the water at 8:30am. 6-mile is located on the main body
of the lake about 5 miles south of cottonwood cove.

Saturday should have bin a practice day for the competitors and i saw about (2) cat's that
ventured down the main part of the lake all day. One was most probably Gordo who i've seen
out signal-handed on his Hobie 21 in over 30 before, the other was a guy with his daughter
who didn't seem to mind the wind either , on their H -18 .

SO -- Here is the question :

I'm guessing that the competitors thought the wind was a bit TO0oo brisk to be safe for the
amount of sail aria on their boats ; so wouldn't having the ability to Reef-In the sails for
a smaller sail aria be a "Safe" option for even the small cats like the 17 and 18's ?

I brought this up in the past, and my 21-se is about to have this option simply because
it's Not safe to be on a lake like Mohave without this ability because the wind
can/has gone primal on what should have bin a mellow day, and it does this
a Lot !

I can see "Limiting" the sail aria for the Max allowed to make things fair ; but the captain should
be allowed to Reduce his aria to what ever he feels is Safe for the current conditions, even in a Race !!

Bille


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:00 am 
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Location: Detroit, MI
First of all, the practice day was Sunday, not Saturday.

On Saturday, the wind went from 0 to 20+ in about 1/2 hour at 2:30 in the afternoon. By that time, we had been putting boats together all day and were not interested in going out.

On Sunday, it was blowing 25+ and nobody wanted to go out (including the RC) to break their boat in a practice race.

On Monday, it was blowing 20+ with gusts to 30+ and the Race Committee boat was taking on water. People were flipping left and right in the gusty channel leading to Arizona Bay, so racing was cancelled for the day.

Tuesday was much more manageable - high teens with gusts into the low 20s. We got five races in.

Wednesday, the wind quit. No racing, although we went out for over six hours to wait for it.

Thursday was a repeat of Tuesday, with the wind from the north instead of the south. Five more races. People were really tired at the end of the day.

Friday, the wind was a steady 25 with gusts into the 30s. None of the sailors wanted to go out. We were beat - and looking towards the trip home. A lot of the boats were already out due to damage.

The bottom line is that racing is not a survival contest. We do this for fun, and high winds take away a lot of that fun. Sure, it's fun to blast around in the big stuff, but when you're trying to go around a course, with a lot of boats in proximity to your own - it's just not fun.

Nobody who races would reef. You always want the most power and there are other ways to de-power in heavy air.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:19 am 
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MBounds wrote:
...

On Sunday, it was blowing 25+ and nobody wanted to go out (including the RC) to break their boat in a practice race.

On Monday, it was blowing 20+ with gusts to 30+ and the Race Committee boat was taking on water. People were flipping left and right in the gusty channel leading to Arizona Bay, so racing was cancelled for the day.

...

Nobody who races would reef. You always want the most power and there are other ways to de-power in heavy air.


I kited so much i got the days mixed up !
Sunday started at a manageable 20mph down at 6-mile,(south of you
on the main body). When it picked up to 30+, i simply grabbed a SMALLER
kite and continued kiting with my Double prosthetic-(s), survivable
mode ended the moment i adjusted my aria to match the wind volatility.

Mr. --mmiller-- told me that the 18's Are allowed to reef then showed me the
rules :
http://www.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/ih ... 120401.pdf

This isn't even a Fun thing ; it's more about safety than anything ...
If your idea of De-powering a 17 is to flatten out the camber, then
i would suggest you stay Away from Mohave in the spring and summer.
The wind will go from 13 - 30mph, (and do that several times a day) ; and
the cycles will last for 20min to an hour sometimes. I've kited and sailed
that lake for 7 years now.

Same goes for the 18's ; if your not willing to reef, then find a Safer lake
to sail. NO i'm NOT being rude, simply stating a fact. The kite i use
can pull me in the 13 lows and can also handle up to 30+mph if needed.
I keep an eye on the lake the entire time, and stay close to shore
if i have my larger kite.

When i showed up at cottonwood on Sunday
i was on a kite appropriate for the wind conditions !! I dropped
it before ever reaching the shore near swim-beach, for safety reasons.
I'm a legless White-haired old fart and will stay within my own safety zone.

http://www.thekiteboarder.com/wordpress ... lly-floyd/

I'm saying that having the ability to Reef is a Safety thing and has
nothing to do with being Macho. Playing with the higher winds can be
and Is Fun when done so with the correct amount of sail area; i learned
this when i was 12, but i guess a cat sailor thinks different than the
mono-hulls sailors i learned from.

You guys have a --one up-- on us kiters ; we Can't adjust our area
on the fly, and You guys can-------------------so Why don't Ya ?
I'd like a Reasonable response please ...
It's NOT meant to be a Bash contest by defending your turf.

I had a Blast in that 30+ stuff and You didn't ; and remember i was Well
within my own personal safety tolerances. You could have bin there with me,
if Ya had Bothered to get rid of some of your excess sail aria. I have
seen Gordo on his 21SE, out having fun by himself, in the same winds.
Come to think of it, he was out on Sunday as well !! You telling me
he Wasn't having Fun ??

Bille

**This topic is mostly meant to address the Safety aspect for learning
to reef a sail ; it's NOT meant to be anything else .

It's safe to say that the cat sailors that i watched at cottonwood
that day, are probably "ALL" -Way- better at their craft than i am with
a kite !

** and WHY aren't the 17's allowed to Reef again ? It Doesn't make
any sense ; the guy who wrote that rule should be forced to go sit
in the corner for a Time-Out , (for being a BAD rule maker) !!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Location: Tri-Cities, WA
Reefing, not reefing. How does one reef boomless (or boomlet) rigs? How does one easily reef on the fly? Sometimes it is just better to stay on the beach. I have been out in sever blows (25 knots+), it is not a lot of fun and breakage potential goes up exponentially. It is a time for kiters and windsurfers. Sailing the Eastern Columbia Gorge, I have seen the wind come up wickedly fast and have even 'sailed' in bare poled (against the current). If these were transoceanic boats then a reefing system would be essential, but they are not and can head in. That all being said, I am looking into a somewhat pricy alternative, a second, smaller squaretop main sail. About 2/3 the size of the standard main sail. It won’t help you on the water if the wind comes up, but if it is a steady blow, I can rig the smaller sail. The trick will be to have it designed such that it won’t change the power balance of the boat, other than to provide less of it. :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:22 pm 
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fastcat wrote:

...

That all being said, I am looking into a somewhat pricy alternative, a second, smaller squaretop main sail. About 2/3 the size of the standard main sail.

...
The trick will be to have it designed such that it won’t change the power balance of the boat, other than to provide less of it. :wink:


YEA -- the balance Will change
unless
you have a jib made that's 2/3 the size of stock also.

Checking the size of the jib on the next size smaller Hobie-cat, may work ?

Bille


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:36 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
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Location: Jersey Shore
Bille wrote:

** and WHY aren't the 17's allowed to Reef again ? It Doesn't make
any sense ; the guy who wrote that rule should be forced to go sit
in the corner for a Time-Out , (for being a BAD rule maker) !!


Would be good to get facts straight before posting this stuff. Per the HCA general rules...
Quote:
Reefing is permitted and may be rigged in any manner except in the North American Region where the mainsail wire halyard shall not extend below the COMPTIP.


So reefing of the 17 and 18 mainsails is entirely class legal. The main problem is that the design of the comptip/halyard hook system does not make reefing very feasible. But if you have a reefing system that you want to use, you are allowed to use it.

sm


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:00 am 
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Location: Santa Cruz
MBounds wrote:
... We do this for fun, and high winds take away a lot of that fun.


That's the more "mature" MBounds talking right there. :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:18 am 
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Location: Tri-Cities, WA
Bille, good point about the jib. I probabily would have it furled if the winds were such that I would opt for the reduced Main. However, it is on a furler so I could shrink it's profile with a partial furl. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:37 am 
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fastcat wrote:
...
However, it is on a furler so I could shrink it's profile with a partial furl. :wink:


Forums are Great for ideas !!!

And i wouldn't have thought about a partially furled jib as a solution.
I "Was" gonna have a Hobie 16 jib on a separate forward stay ; already
to be unfurled as i get rid of the stock jib.

SO--
** How clean does a partially furled jib look ; does it introduce
wrinkles into the sail ?
** What does a partially furled jib do to it's camber distribution ; which
would have a Huge impact on its pulling power ?

I am mostly a mono-huller ;we usually just
get rid of the bigger jib, and replace it with a smaller one ; an example
would be a 150% drifter is taken down, and replaced with a smaller one.

Bille


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:43 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:21 am
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Location: St. Helena, CA
fastcat wrote:
Reefing, not reefing. How does one reef boomless (or boomlet) rigs? How does one easily reef on the fly? Sometimes it is just better to stay on the beach. I have been out in sever blows (25 knots+), it is not a lot of fun and breakage potential goes up exponentially. It is a time for kiters and windsurfers. Sailing the Eastern Columbia Gorge, I have seen the wind come up wickedly fast and have even 'sailed' in bare poled (against the current). If these were transoceanic boats then a reefing system would be essential, but they are not and can head in. That all being said, I am looking into a somewhat pricy alternative, a second, smaller squaretop main sail. About 2/3 the size of the standard main sail. It won’t help you on the water if the wind comes up, but if it is a steady blow, I can rig the smaller sail. The trick will be to have it designed such that it won’t change the power balance of the boat, other than to provide less of it. :wink:


Fast Cat if your looking for an 2/3rds 18 set I know a guy that has a set of 83 Blue Hawaii send me and email and I'll put you in contact with him.
corkguy1390 (at) Sbcglobal.net

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:41 am 
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Location: St. Helena, CA
Hello Billie,
Mohave was a lot of fun I wish we could have gotten more races in.

With an 18 there are a number of ways to depower. (furl the jib, flatten the main sail, down haul, mast rotator, traveler placement) Crew weight is also a key factor my daugter and I were 20 lbs over minimum. Look at the results the top 3 teams, they were all adults and not the lightest weights. Congratulation to the Lewis’s they dominated!

My crew and I were making all kind of adjustments in regards to power / depower in efforts to keep our boat under control. We were surprised that we only went over once the whole week!

We were one of 4 boats that made it to the start line on Monday before racing was canceled. We went over on Tuesday in the 3rd race. We were also the victim of a minor collision on Thursday at the A mark.

As stated above its one thing to be ripping around when you are all by yourself, it’s another when you have boats competing in close proxcimity! There were 27 18's entered and 18 17's. So in mid race we were contending with a lot of boats on course. Now add in waves and gusts and the desire to win and it got wild, especially on Thursday! On Thursday one 18 had a complete hull failer just getting to the start line, One boat was broadsided at speed which necessitated its crew member to be airlifted to Las Vegas with a minor concussion, and there were numerous other collisions. Protests were filled.

What doesn’t show in the score is the boat damage. In the 18 fleet we lost one to a hull failer at the front crossbar, the 18 that was broadsided will likely need a new hull, I saw another 18 with a 6 inch rip between the crossbar and the bow, and I know of one 17 with a fixable ripped sail. And this is only the ones I know of. This isn’t NASCAR we don’t receive money for participating or winning. Strong wind is fun but survival sailing is not.

Corkguy H18 placed 15th overall.

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