Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:29 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:21 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:00 am
Posts: 13
On one of your posts below re: foils you said it was not good or ready for "general public use". Many of us in the "general public" would like to see something like this available from Hobie. Otherwise, someone else will do it and we'll go to them. The Moth already has them on their small monohull, at believe me, after seeing a demo fleet of these live in SF at the America's Cup recently they look like FUN.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:09 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 9025
Location: Oceanside, California
Foil sailing products have been around for 20+ years now and have not gained wide acceptance due to price, technical, limited conditions issues. As noted... we had the TriFoiler. You could even get a rotomolded foiler in the 90's. http://www.sailingbreezes.com/sailing_breezes_current/advertisers/rave/rave_redefining.htm

There are several catamarans with foiling boards...

We are always looking at ways to use our foil technology in another product, but nothing viable for consumer use currently.

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:38 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2712
Location: Kailua 96734
Man those moths are cool. They do circles around the big cats.

Silent running, too. It's eerie.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:40 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2712
Location: Kailua 96734
BTW, the Moth world World Championship is here next week on Kaneohe Bay. I've been dodging swarms of them all week.

Maybe after, I can find some gently used foil boats on sale? :mrgreen:

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:55 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 4:56 pm
Posts: 51
mmiller wrote:
Foiling boats are technical, expensive, limited to narrow conditions, difficult to manage... We had a lot of fun with it, but not the best product for general public use.


Might be time to bring that thing back ; foiling is starting to get Big now.
In kite boarding, there are a Lot of people purchasing those things now.

With a bit more (R & D), would it be possible to give your Tri-foiler a
wider wind-range ? If You don't do it, someone in the Near future WILL ; and
that is almost Certain !!!

Bille


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:07 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1321
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
If I owned a Trifoiler, the very first thing I would do with it would be to cut a hole in the bottom, and add a mirage drive well in the cockpit. Plenty of retrofits have been done on sit inside kayaks, where they just build up 4 walls on the outside of the well (so water doesn't fill the hull), then snap the mirage drive in there. When not using the Mirage drive, the box can be covered with a lid.. It would solve all the Trifoilers problems with getting out of the harbors, and getting around when the wind dies, and it's upwind difficulties.
Once the hull is out of the water (on foils), there is no drag penalty, just park the fins against the underside of the hull.
Once this is done, then it's a very simple matter to just add an Evolve system, just plug it in to the mirage drive pocket. Again once your up on the foils, the evolve system is completely out of the water. Adding 15 lbs weight into the mix is not going to be a show stopper on a 350 lb boat.
The way I figure it, if I had ten grand to spend on a Trifoiler, I could easily come up with another $2500 to add an evolve system with dual batteries, and a couple optional solar panels. The panels would be rigged behind the spars (plenty of room for them).

Another less expensive option would be to hang a Honda 2.3 motor on the Trifoiler (Dan Ketterman had I think a 5hp on his for a while).
I have a Honda 2.3 on my TI, and boy what a difference it makes. When the wind is not cooperating, I just fire the motor up and powersail. I can go out all day powersailing for about a dollar or two in gas.
Of course once you get far enough offshore so you can foil, you just shut the motor off. Again adding 30 lbs into the mix is not going to be a show stopper on a 350 lb trifoiler. I've seen several videos of Trifoilers out with 2-3 people on board so adding the motor, or Mirage drive/Evolve system would be a no brainer for me.
Actually I would probably do both.

The second thing I would do is get rid of the old 15-20 yr old sail design and update the Trifoiler with more modern wing sails like the latest moths and the windsurfers have. With wing sails you would open up the boats capabilities beyond even what I can imagine. Things like foiling upwind at 2x windspeed, and downwind 3x windspeed would be easily accomplished (just like the AC 72's). Now I'm not talking about the big solid jointed wings like on the AC 72's, when anyone mentions wing sails, that is what everyone pictures in their minds and wants nothing to do with them. I'm talking about double walled semi rigid sails that from a distance look no different from standard sails, the jibs on the AC 72's are this type, and that type of sail is what I have on my TI, and boy what a difference it makes, they work completely different from normal sails, so you have to throw away all your old books and learn a different way of sailing.
With the above mentioned system, I pretty sure I could get into the high 40's on a regular basis, and in a lot more conditions. I'm thinking your speed limit would be when the foils begin to cavitate, or you start getting scared (whichever comes first).
The Trifoiler design like I've said before was 15-20 yrs ahead of it's time, but even to todays standards, the foil system is one of the best out there thanks to Greg Kettermans genious. But keep in mind this was a long time ago, and the world has progressed quite a bit. The Trifoiler started out as a High school project and was designed around current 'for the time' knowledge. If he had thought up the Mirage drive first, I'm sure it would have been incorporated into the mix, but that didn't come till much later.
I just wish I had one so I could soup it up, but that's never going to happen, I just don't have that kind of money to play around with.
Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:46 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2073
Location: High Point, NC
The TriFoiler will already foil upwind without any trouble. I haven't had any trouble with it on any point of sail. Tacking on the foils is difficult, but you can do it with a little practice. Generally, however, you just do a complete gybe all the way around to the new tack when sailing upwind. You stay on the foils and it ends up being faster anyway.

It would be nice to have a Mirage Drive in it, but that would interfere with the steering system which is operated by foot and in the same location you'd want the MD. I suppose there is some arrangement by which it could be added, however.

Adding a motor of some sort has always been an option and many have done it. But it didn't help the boat sell.

It's a fantastic boat and a thrill to operate, as are all foiling boats I'm sure, but the instant you add foils to something you introduce a brand new set of variables that make it a difficult sell to a recreational market. Sure there will always be a hardcore racing or thrill market for such things, but it may not be large enough for Hobie to come out on.

Everybody wants a foiling boat, until they spend some time putting one together, negotiating launching and landing it, packing it away, etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:24 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2712
Location: Kailua 96734
Bob, I would love to see you pimp Toms ride, but doubt the mirage idea would work out.

Too much drag both in the air and water. They would definitely need to be removed for sailing at any speed. The drives cavitate badly at AI speeds and could never survive the beating at higher speeds. When it's removed, just think about the bidet effect when coming on and off the foils! :o

The new, one piece gas motor option you mentioned makes the most sense for launching in shallow waters and such.

But the wing idea sounds fascinating from a pure performance standpoint.

It's hard to fault the simplicity, durability and affordability of the trifoilers boomed windsurfing sails though. After all these years, they still make a lot of sense.

AFAIK, the moths don't utilize wings or jibs -yet. I'm going out on an h16 to watch them race for the nationals today. :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:16 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:27 am
Posts: 18
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
mmiller wrote:
Foiling boats are technical, expensive, limited to narrow conditions, difficult to manage... We had a lot of fun with it, but not the best product for general public use.

True, but it would really be a cool job to be a Hobie test sailor!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:23 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 9025
Location: Oceanside, California
Laukahi wrote:
True, but it would really be a cool job to be a Hobie test sailor!


Yes... it is!

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:36 am 
Offline
Hobie Tech / Moderator

Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 1:12 pm
Posts: 1008
mmiller wrote:
Yes... it is!



:)

_________________
Jacques Bernier
http://www.hobiecat.com/
http://www.facebook.com/HobieCatCompany


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:29 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2712
Location: Kailua 96734
You guys have all the fun. :cry:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:51 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:28 am
Posts: 702
Location: Clinton Lake, KS
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


Image


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5Nb3iGdTEM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuvtFX_iikc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U95UReP4 ... 1C6FB675CC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VyOZVtOWoI


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:13 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:32 am
Posts: 296
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnjyusAgk8I


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:34 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2712
Location: Kailua 96734
:mrgreen:



Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group