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 Post subject: Pentex Mylar
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:22 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:45 am
Posts: 759
Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
Pentex is a brand name, right? and used for the Tiger main sail.

Is it much different from the mylar used in 20 and 17 mains?

Why is this not an option for the 16 main? or used for the 17/20 sail?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:56 am 
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Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:49 am
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Location: North Carolina
Can't compare mylar to pentex. Mylar is always a laminate over another material like dacron, mylar is too brittle to use alone. The 17, 18sx and 20 were developed prior to Pentex, and Mylar lams were state of the art. There are several other fabrics available now such as Contender and Carbonfibre. Pentex is the cloth, not a brand. It is an option for 16 sails but since Hobie doesn't provide Pentex 16 sails they are not class legal.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:37 am 
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Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
Thanks for the insight.

Will/has Hobie considered changing to Pentex, Carbonfire or Contender for their US made mains?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 12:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:46 pm
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Location: Santa Cruz
Just curious. Why would one want to change the 16 main to Pentex?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
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Location: Detroit, MI
Just to clarify - Mylar (also a brand name) sails are class legal on the 16.

They just have to be made by Hobie Cat - which doesn't make them anymore.

Why? They turned out to be slower and didn't last as long as the all Dacron (also a brand name) sails. Racers abandoned them within a couple of years of their introduction in 1991.

BTW - Mylar and Dacron are identical chemically. One is spun into fiber; the other is extruded into film.

The Mylar sails that Hobie made for the 16 and still make for the 17 are a 2-ply laminate of Mylar and Dacron scrim. That type of material is called a taffeta.

Why not use an all-Mylar sail? Mylar has poor tear resistance. Once started, a tear will propogate with lighting speed in a Mylar film. Fiber reinforcing dissapates the loads more evenly across the film and prevents tears from propogating.

"Pentex" is a brand name of polyester fiber (just like Dacron) that has a higher modulus of elasticity (meaning it doesn't stretch as much). Pentex is used as the "filling" in a 3-ply laminate sail material inbetween Mylar films. The smoke color of Tiger sails is actually a UV inhibitor in the laminate adhesive.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 2:40 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:19 am
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Location: Gisborne, New Zealand
You sound like a clever bunny MBounds! I always learn something everytime I look at this forum. Thanks for the information on this topic, guys - I know I'll probably never use it but it's handy to know anyways.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:59 am
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Location: Ogden Dunes, IN
Does Pentex have kevlar strands in the middle of the 3 part laminate? Is Pentex OK for a jib that is furled and then rolled from the bottom to the top when stored?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 9:53 am 
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Location: Detroit, MI
Like I said in my first post, Pentex is the brand name of a polyester fiber that's used for reinforcing Mylar laminates.

Kevlar is the brand name of an aramid fiber, also used for reinforcing Mylar laminates. Raw Kevlar is yellow, so it's fairly easy to identify.

Kevlar does not take bending well. Repeated bending (furling) will eventually break down the fibers. The smaller the diameter, the greater the damage. Kelvar is not UV resistant, either.

Laminate sails should never be folded - they should be rolled from the head/foot of the sail to the foot/head.


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 Post subject: Sailcloth 101
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:09 am
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Location: San Diego, CA
Sailcloth comes in two styles. Woven and Laminate.

Mylar is the film coating. Mylar is a trade name for polyester film produced by DuPont.

Laminate sailcloth is comprised of scrim, inserts and film.

The scrim is pre-formed and the inserts are inserted in the lamination process.

Modern laminates come in two styles, race and cruise. The race style has the film on both sides. The cruise has a taffeta(light weight woven fabric) laminated to one or two sides.

The fibers in laminate cloth vary from polyester, pentex, aramid(kevlar or technora), spectra and carbon. The low end laminates are polyester, polyester and pentex blend and pentex. The high end is aramid and carbon.

The tinted laminates were developed to UV protect the fibers. Pentex will yellow in the sun. They developed a clear UV inhibitor but the fashion trend has shifted to tinted sails.

Woven fabric is primarily polyester, a while back pentex was used in wovens but it had a problem of yellowing. High end wovens are a blend of polyester and spectra.

The big four sailcloth providers are Dimension Polyant, Contender, Bainbridge and Challenge.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 6:01 pm 
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Getting back to John's original question:

Quote:
Why is this not an option for the 16 main? or used for the 17/20 sail?


This goes back to the origins of the Hobie One Design Philosophy. The intent was to make the boats as equal as possible, so that the skill of the sailors, not the thickness of their wallets determined the outcome.

From the very beginning, only Hobie Cat licensed or branded sails have been allowed for class racing. In the early days, sail quality was inconsistent, but in the past 15 years, the sails coming out of the Hobie loft have been very high quality and consistently shaped.

Another benefit to the process is the elimination of sail measurement.

Multiple-manufacturer one design classes allow multiple sailmakers, however, each sail must be measured and approved by the class - often an expensive and time-consuming process. Even these classes will put limits on the types of sail material used. For example, the Tornado class has a specific list of approved sail materials. Anything not on the list is not allowed.

For the Hobie 16, dacron has proven to be the fastest, most durable material. The jib takes a lot of abuse tacking across the mast. For whatever reason, the boat likes a flexible, somewhat stretchy (in comparison to Mylar laminates) main. The vertical cut laminate sails made in the late 80's / early 90's were more for marketing than anything else. Boat sales were crashing and Hobie Cat was trying everything to pump them up.

The Hobie 17's 2-layer laminate sail was designed in 1984, when laminate sails were just hitting the general marketplace. The horizontal cut was quickly abandoned in favor of the vertical cut, which, if you've ever sailed a 17, you can feel the speed difference between the two. Will there ever be a new, class legal sail for the 17? Not for a while at least. Now that the boats are out of production, the owners may take a more active role in determining its fate. The material is harder to get, and colors even harder. It's more likely that it would change just because the material becomes prohibitively expensive.

Both the Hobie 16 and Hobie 17 are ISAF International Classes. That means that ISAF must approve any class rule changes. Not an easy thing to do on a major thing like sail materials / patterns.

The Hobie 20's main sail is a 3 layer laminate, while the jib is Dacron. It is not an ISAF class, but it's unlikely that the sail material will change. The mains are very durable. Change will only come at the request of the boat owners, and the IHCA Rules Committee would almost certainly not recommend a change in sail material or pattern.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 6:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 pm
Posts: 1668
Location: Northfield Minnesota
MBounds wrote:
not the thickness of their wallets determined the outcome


Then I get booted outta B fleet for using my wallet. :evil:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:36 pm 
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Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
Jeremy asked "why would you?" and my answer is "I honestly don't know, that's why I asked" :?

Matt, thanks for the answer :)

Karl, We need to observe the Division rules as they were written many years ago, and you may "Step down" a fleet if you do not trophy in a points regatta the season following advancement. It has to remain fun or we'll turn off new racers. Some guys wont ever move down from A (even not trophying) and are perfectly happy and some classes may never have a B Fleet (i.e. 20's). The rules say you move after three firsts in any regattas or two firsts in the Divisional's. Nice regatta, you guys are at the perfect weight, how are you going to get better? You've got a Nationals coming you need to tune up for. 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 pm
Posts: 1668
Location: Northfield Minnesota
John, yeah yeah.... I'm moving to A, and I'm going to get pounded. Hopefully I can get some consistant crew that is the same weight as Ben. And Daggerless was the 2nd regatta I've ever won at and the only reason I was able to brutalize you guys the way I did was because of Ben. He's a good skipper, and excellent crew. (Not to mention 130lbs) He was on top of every situation we had and we work really well together. Our gear, and the food we brought out were the only things that got us that last five pounds to make minimum weight. You're right I won't grow in B fleet. I just hope I don't get too frustrated in A. I'm really hoping I've got some talent being this is my 2nd season racing, and that I will continue to learn in the manner and speed that I have. Maybe I should've hung on to my old 85'. Nobody gave me crap about racing that boat.


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