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 Post subject: Knives...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:20 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:29 am
Posts: 16
Location: Norway
Here's something to mull over... knives... these are an essential peice of personnel kit and too often I find people don't carry them.

If you capsize and you or your crew are caught by ropes, or... occasionally it has happened... the tramp, a knife is the quickest way out... I'd be lothed to cut my tramp, especially as I bought a bran new one last year, but then again crews, especially good ones, are hard to come by... the tramp can be repaired, a drowned crew is a wee bit trickier to fix...

It's not enough to have a knife on the boat. All people on the boat should have a knife readily available on their person. I have a folding sailing knife (with handy shackle key (bung turner) and bottle opener) on a lanyard along with a whistle on my buoyancy aid. I have a purpose built pocket on the BA for this.

The knife is useful for a multitude of things... but believe me if you ever need it, you'll be very glad that you have had it.

Over the last few years I've heard of three fatalities with people trapped under boats (one H16, one Tornado and one mono hull). It's hard to get all the facts but at least on one of these, if not two, a knife may have made a difference...

As my life might depend on you carrying a knife... I'd appreciate it if you take this well meant advice...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:32 pm
Posts: 198
Location: West Texas
I usually keep one in the dry bag, mainly because it's never occurred to me to carry one on my person. Guess I'll be doing that from now on! Thanks for the safety tip! :)

Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:56 pm
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Location: Grande Prairie
yeah the knife is a key componet on any boat, because of there adaptablility, a good add-on to knife is a Marlins Pike if you can get it. But make sure that it will lfold into the handle cause they are very nasty when you sit on one. heeheehee


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
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Location: Detroit, MI
I've personally known one person who drowned and another who almost drowned while trapped by a capsized boat.

It's doubtful that a knife would have saved either one, since they were both entangled in the wire rigging, one for sure with her trapeze hook (the shroud was wrapped around it).

Nonetheless, I always carry a wicked sharp folding knife on a lanyard attached to my life jacket, just in case. I've started carrying wire cutters in a bag on the tramp, too.

If figure if I always have them, I'll never need them. (Isn't that the way luck works? :wink: )


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:21 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:26 pm
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area
An easily deployed leartherman-style tool would have both a knife and a cutter, and would be easily stowed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:29 am 
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Location: Detroit, MI
A lLeatherman will not cut a shroud wire - and wouls have trouble even with a trap wire.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:39 am
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Location: Finger Lakes, NY
Great observation clarsen!

Horrible thing about the trap hook catching up on the rigging. I was in a similar situation once with the hook on my butt bucket securely locked into rigging and the boat upended in huge waves. I was sailing just outiside of Ocean City, Maryland at Assateague Island. I manged to get out of the bucket. Reading this thread and thinking back on it, a knife would have helped a lot. Even if I could have cut the lacing instead of untying it. Hmm :shock:

I carry a smaller serrated knife with an AUS-6 grade blade that is handy as a shackle wrench too, but if I were to pick a knife completely based on a possible safety issue, I would recommend the Spyderco "Harpy" model. This knife was designed with mariners in mind and the hard VG-10 steel, Hawksbill shaped blade just MAY be able to cut trap wires (maybe just once, before the blade is ruined, but that may be the one time it counts). Check it out http://www.spyderco.com/online_product_ ... RR2B210XQ7


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:40 pm 
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Having taken several metallurgy classes in college and apprenticing as a blacksmith, I can definitely say from first-hand experience that Spyderco knives are great. Every emergency situation is different, and you can only hedge your bets, but I would get something one-hand-opening, with a lanyard hole, and serrated. Widerisbetter's recommendation is right up there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:49 pm
Posts: 110
Location: Jamestown, RI
A Gerber multi tool will cut shrouds and trap wires and has a saw blade that will cut tramp lacing and other lines. I have personally used one to cut through the rigging on a turtled laser with operator entangled. I am a member of the jamestown fire department's marine rescue squad and I always carry one on my rescue swimmer rig. The cutters will be useless after one or two cuts through the rigging, but if you really need it you only need it once.

Marcus
H14
Narragansett Bay

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Marcus
H16
Narragansett Bay, RI


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:25 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:39 am
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Location: Finger Lakes, NY
I only have the highest praise for the efforts and good work of our emergency "forces". I have many friends who are EMT's and volunteer firemen. God bless you all- sincerely.

But, and I don't mean to denigrate your efforts at all, I have to wonder if it was a Laser you were extricating a sailor from. I mean, the rigging on a Laser is a mainsheet, a vang and downhaul. If someone was so entangled in a mainsheet on a Laser that they needed to be cut free, I would consign that person to bathtub toys :? I would also wonder if simply flipping the Laser over would have been an easier option (?). Of course, I wasn't there. It was your call obviously.

Don't get me wrong please, I have solo-sailed since I was about 10 years old. (I am 51 now) I have been in flipped K's, Stars, Tornados, a Catalina 22, H16's- 18's-14's and now a 17, Sunfish, Sailfish A-Scow, E-Scow, Snipe, Rhodes 19, Optimist Pram and others. I have been under spinnakers, mains and hulls but I have never been entangled except for an incident on my 16. I guess I am a regular one man disaster :) I have had to cut away rigging on boats that were tangled in each other but never had to help a sailor get free. That is not to say it could never happen and there are still good enough reasons to carry a knife.

So on carry a knife vs a multi tool. I have been looking for a good multi tool so I checked out the Gerber. Much nicer than the Leatherman- especially the T3 model 8) Thanks for the tip. Keep in mind though that, if I am trapped I want to be able to grab ONE thing and open it with ONE hand. The Multi-tool probably serves a better purpose helping others but I wouldn't want to be holding my breath and trying to decide which blade to use :wink:

Gotta go order a T3 now. (This forum always costs me money :lol: )

Happy sails from the old man and the sea :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:48 am 
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Location: Jamestown, RI
yeah, I'm wrong there. A lazer is about the size of a sunfish, right? This was something much bigger, perhaps a lightning. I can never keep the names straight. Hard to tell when it's turtled in heavy seas. I'm not sure what the poor soul was tangled in, maybe a running backstay or something, but he was barely able to keep his face above water in the air bubble in the cockpit. He was so nervous about being dragged under that he was swimming hard for the surface. This just made the rigging tighter and tighter around his leg. Sometimes it's better to go under, relax for a second, and figure out what's going on. Although easier said than done when you are underneath a boat.

Fair winds and Following seas to all.

Marcus
H14
Narragansett Bay

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Marcus
H16
Narragansett Bay, RI


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:54 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Durham, NC
This discussion about cutting wires comes up on every forum I visit.
I have never seen anyone point out that it is very easy to CUT THE HARNESS OFF.
Most trapeze harnesses are held on by little nylon straps, any sharp knife will cut them.
The person who drowned when the hook twisted in the shroud, only needed to cut the two nylon straps holding hook or bar on.


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 Post subject: definitely a good point
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:58 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:39 am
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Location: Finger Lakes, NY
Taking that thought one step further- keep in mind to cut away first at whatever is easiest to cut: a sail, a trampoline, a sheet, a nylon strap etc. That stuff can all be replaced.

Another thought: aren't harnesses all held on with those quick release buckles these days?

I touched on removal of a harness when I said "I manged to get out of the bucket... a knife would have helped a lot. Even if I could have cut the lacing instead of untying it." I had a 6 holed chest clip that had about 6 feet of lacing strapped through it- Believe it or not, I had pitchpoled, flown around the forstay and, on my return trip the trapeze hook went DEAD center ONTO the bow shackle that holds the forstay to the shrouds. The diameter of the hook is about the same as the diameter of the bow shackle. IF the name of the game was "Throw Yourself at the Boat and connect your harness to the bow shackle" you would NEVER be able to do it :roll: I could NOT get the hook out of the shackle. The boat kept pitching forward in the waves driving me under water and then rocking back LIFTING me into the air. It was like being tied to crazed hobby-horse. Friends onshore said it looked really funny to see me go down and then get pulled up about 3 feet above the waves. No charge for the entertainment I told them :? :wink: I did not have a knife, so all I could think was to get the thing off. If I had a knife, even the little one I carry now, I would have gone for that lacing in a second. It would have beat being dunked up and down like a witch in medieval days being drowned. I'm not dead yet though :lol:

As marcus said "Sometimes it's better to go under, relax for a second, and figure out what's going on. Although easier said than done when you are underneath a boat. "

Right on (by the way marcus, it probably was a Lightning- there's a LOT of stuff on one of those to hang up on)

Fair winds


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