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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:57 pm 
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timo wrote:
Whoops, one more question:

Our last step in building the mast holding structure is to epoxy the pvc pipe to the hobie mast receiver. Can you describe how you did this? One way to do it would be to put the pvc pipe on the mast receiver and then try to flow or inject epoxy down the inner side of the pvc pipe and the outer surface of the mast receiver, but then we aren't sure how to get the epoxy to flow down that relatively narrow space. Another way might be to try to splotch a lot of epoxy onto the mast receiver and then put the pvc pipe over the gooped up mast receiver. Which did you do? What do you recommend? We haven't done this type of thing before and aren't sure how much flow to expect from the epoxy when mixed up.

Thanks Sterling!

Timo


I covered the mast receiver in epoxy before I put it into the PVC pipe. The epoxy I used didn't flow very much.
How is your jib coming along??
Do you have any pictures and or suggestion for additional modifications?
Thank timo!

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Sterling
2008 Papaya Adventure Island with Roller Furler Jib
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Post about my jib
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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Sterling,

Wonder if you missed my questions just one post prior to the one beginning "Whoops". -- About the rope system in the furler and forestay and also asking about how to think about fastening the pad eyes (and fair leads and jam cleats). When I scan the forums and see a thread has been updated, I often hit the button that jumps to the most recent entry and since my two this evening were entered shortly after each other I wonder if you might not have seen the one just before "Whoops". If you could take a look at it I'd appreciate it.

The project is coming along well I think. I expect we will be able to sort out all the remaining aspects of the rig within the next week or two, probably just in time for sailing weather to return here in upstate NY. When its together I'll take pics. We are pretty much trying to copy what you've done. The structure for holding the mast is now in place except for the epoxy step and I think we have all the other parts we need. Confusion remains about the rope setup in the furler and how to secure the pad eyes, fair leads, and cleats to the deck since it looks like bolts can't be used on those parts. If we use screws, how long should they be and does one need to drill starter holes (real nervous about drilling/screwing into the hull - - the bolts through the hatch cover was less traumatic because the hatch cover could always be replaced!).

Thanks!

Timo


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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:47 am 
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Location: Central Florida
timo wrote:
Hi Sterling (hope you're still monitoring this),

We're just finishing construction of the mast base assembly and moving on now to the furler mechanism and mast stays and we have a couple new questions:

(1) The pics of the lines involved in the furler show three lines (a) an orange one that we believe is used to support the entire sail from the top of the mast to the bow pad eye, (b) a black and red line that looks like its purpose is to make the sail furl or unfurl, and (c) a black and blue line. What is the function of the black and blue line? What does it attach to -- the sail somewhere? Would appreciate whatever extended description you can supply of how to rig all these lines.

(2) When mounting the pad eyes for the shrouds behind the cockpit aka cross bar, it appears that they must be attached with screws because it it seems you can't get inside the boat to hold a nut or a bolt from underneath. Are screws really sufficiently secure? Did you drill a starter hole for the screw first? How deep? A little nervous about this step since putting holes in the boat seems so risky!

Thanks!

Timo


i missed that post sorry! :oops:
the black and blue line you speak of is the downhaul line that holds the jib secure to the furler mechanism, with out this line the pvc going through the sleeve in the jib will spin when you try to furl your jib and the jib will not actually furl (because it is not attached to the furler drum)

and i attached the pad eyes with well nuts that i got from hobie but you can bolt the pad eyes in place as well
the fairlead's i used 2 self tapping screws that are about 1/2 longer than the fairlead itself. i did drill a pilot hole that was smaller than the screw just to make sure it fit snug.
as for the jam cleats, i also used some short (maybe 1/2 inch or so) self tapping machine screws with pilot holes to secure the jam cleats.

i also was not keen on the idea of using self tapping screws at first but after all the testing i have done i feel confident that they will hold together very well.

and if something goes wrong you can patch the holes that you drill into your boat. most hobie dealers can patch small holes like that. i have drilled many holes in the wrong places on my AI but i just use an extra piece of yellow hobie plastic from another (deeply departed) Adventure
and a blow torch to melt a little extra plastic into the holes.

just remember when it gets too windy (in my tests, over about 12-15mph furl it! :D

Hope this helps!

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Sterling
2008 Papaya Adventure Island with Roller Furler Jib
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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:33 pm 
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Location: TX
"The TI jib is a planned accessory that is still in development. Jim Czarnowski (Penguin Man on the EC 2010 and chief engineer here) used a prototype jib on the race. The system needs further refinement before we can offer this as an accessory. The new TI is actually designed to accept this as a forethought." Matt, when you said this, I assume that the TI that I presently have on order will accomodate the jib that you come up with. I have heard some concern re. the strength of the point of attachment with the TI. If that's true is that point of contact being reinforced on these early production run TI's?


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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:57 am 
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i`m almost ready to begin S.Yoars`s jib mod and i`m having trouble finding any info on a new/replacement front hatch cover. Can anyone offer any helpful information on a part number and cost for a new hatch cover?

many thanks to S.Yoars for all his follow up posts and great idea in general ! can`t wait to see the video !!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:25 am 
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grahamrj wrote:
I have heard some concern re. the strength of the point of attachment with the TI. If that's true is that point of contact being reinforced on these early production run TI's?


All TI's will have some attachment locations pre-set including the attachment on the main. The only concern we have is from our own testing. This would not effect the hulls corrently being made. The assumption is that any needed reinforcement would come with the jib kit if/when approved for production.

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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:14 pm 
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jb7 wrote:
i`m almost ready to begin S.Yoars`s jib mod and i`m having trouble finding any info on a new/replacement front hatch cover. Can anyone offer any helpful information on a part number and cost for a new hatch cover?

many thanks to S.Yoars for all his follow up posts and great idea in general ! can`t wait to see the video !!!!


I bought a new hatch cover to use for this project. I believe it was about US$100. I ordered mine through Austin Canoe and Kayak (or Kayak and Canoe) and it took about 2 weeks for it to come in. I also bought the mast receiver and sail through them. We recently finished building/installing the mast receiver in the new hatch cover. It seems very solid indeed.

The part that was hardest to find was the best pvc fittings to use for at the furler. Until we start rigging the furler I'm not going to be completely confident of my conceptualization of how it works but given my present understanding of how the furler will work, it seemed like the fitting part that would be best would be a 3 inch to 3/4 inch reducer bushing, which is not an off the shelf fitting. I have one coming in the mail this week.

Hopefully we'll finish this up soon.

Timo


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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:44 pm 
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"a new hatch cover to use for this project.....was about US$100.....through Austin Canoe and Kayak"

thanks timo !


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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:54 am 
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Sterling,

We're considering running the back stays to the points on the forward aka bar where it attaches to the hull by the main mast (the "feet" of the aka bars with the bolt holes in it -- and on the bow side). We've found that a carabiner clip at the end of each stay can attach through the aka bar hull attach points pretty easily, which saves mounting the pad eyes on the cockpit side of that bar and brings the stays a bit more forward of the main sail should it be deployed fully, as in a down wind run. What do you think about that? It makes the stays attach forward of the cockpit as opposed to just inside it.

As well, we are thinking of putting a small turn buckle in line of each backstay so that the tension can be adjusted. I wondered how much tension you have on your backstays? I imagine they should be pretty tight or they might not adequately support the mast. From cursory reading, in racing sailboats the main masts would have adjustable backstays the tension on which might be actively manipulated as the boat goes through points of sail. That's not the concern in our case, rather just how to conceptualize the right amount of tension on the jib's mast to offset the load from the jib line itself.

If you have a minute, I'd appreciate your thoughts/experience on these issues.

Thanks!

Timo


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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:25 pm 
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Location: Central Florida
timo wrote:
Sterling,

We're considering running the back stays to the points on the forward aka bar where it attaches to the hull by the main mast (the "feet" of the aka bars with the bolt holes in it -- and on the bow side). We've found that a carabiner clip at the end of each stay can attach through the aka bar hull attach points pretty easily, which saves mounting the pad eyes on the cockpit side of that bar and brings the stays a bit more forward of the main sail should it be deployed fully, as in a down wind run. What do you think about that? It makes the stays attach forward of the cockpit as opposed to just inside it.

As well, we are thinking of putting a small turn buckle in line of each backstay so that the tension can be adjusted. I wondered how much tension you have on your backstays? I imagine they should be pretty tight or they might not adequately support the mast. From cursory reading, in racing sailboats the main masts would have adjustable backstays the tension on which might be actively manipulated as the boat goes through points of sail. That's not the concern in our case, rather just how to conceptualize the right amount of tension on the jib's mast to offset the load from the jib line itself.

If you have a minute, I'd appreciate your thoughts/experience on these issues.

Thanks!

Timo


I never really thought about attaching the back stays to the front of the aka crossbar... i started out attaching it on the back side of the aka cross bar but i didnt think i was back far enough, so i installed the pad eyes just a little farther back.
i dont see why it would not work....

and as for turnbuckles inline with the back stays... i think that is a great idea actually... i dont have a lot of tension on the back stays until i attach the stay the jib rides on to the foward bow pad eye. at that point everything is pretty snug but it still has a little play in it...
i think i might have to borrow that idea for turnbuckles for my back stays as well

how is your rig coming along timo? any photos? :)

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Sterling
2008 Papaya Adventure Island with Roller Furler Jib
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Post about my jib
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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:10 pm 
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Sterling,

We're in the last steps of the rigging now and we wondered if you would be able to comment on a couple questions that have cropped up: First, imagine starting with the jib furled and the furling line completely played out into the cockpit. As the jib is unfurled (by pulling on one of the jib sheets), the furling line should wrap around the pvc pipe just above the large reducer bushing. Ours does wrap but the furling line travels up the pvc pipe as it winds in and does this so much so that it actually fouls the jib somewhat as the jib is unfurling. We are trying to figure out how to keep the furling line coiling where we want it -- down on the top of the reducer bushing. Did you have this happen? What if anything did you do about it?

Second, are we correct that to pass the jib from one side to the the other, the jib must be furled a bit else it fouls on the top of its mast?

Third, the pvc pipe that the sail mounts on to has a tendency to ride up the forestay (the rope running through it from the top of the mast to the shackle attaching to the bow padeye) when it is unfurling. Does this happen for you too? Have you rigged anything to keep it from doing that?

Thanks!

Timo


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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:28 am 
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Location: Central Florida
Everything you have discribed timo has happened to my boat before but not to the extent of which you are describing. I haven't had to create a solution to stop the furling line from rising up the forestay yet and I didn't har to partially reef the sail to gybe (change sides) I dd however remove the batten but that causes the top near the batten sleeve to become useless but it does allow it to gybe quickly. Your idea should work I think but if you have enough wind it should gybe the sail with out furling any of it I think
as for you sliding pipe problem maybe a longer pipe would stop that from happening? Maybe making the pipe long enough to reach the portion of the sail where the sleeve begins to narrow?

On a side note I would like to reinforce the notion that this system for a jib is for LIGHT WIND CONDITIONS ONLY. I had a mishap two days ago with my jib that resulted in a broken carbon paddle, cracked dagger board, broken drive and a missing gps.

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Sterling
2008 Papaya Adventure Island with Roller Furler Jib
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Post about my jib
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=20991


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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:16 pm 
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Wow I'm truly sorry to hear about your mishap and gear loss. What exactly happened, and in what conditions of sea and wind? (Want to learn from this and know what to avoid. -- But, again, sounds like you had a bad go of it and I'm sorry.)

I think we've got a handle on the problem of the rope climbing the forestay pvc pipe. It seems that if we put a fair lead on the hatch cover a few inches in front of the mast step for the furling rope that the furling rope travels less and stays off the sail. We are now trying some adjustments to keep the top of the sail off the mast and back stays. We are going to try to rig a kind of spreader up the top of the mast to keep the forestay farther off the mast. Otherwise the furling system is now working well. It occurred to me earlier this evening that you might have said something before about removing that battan. Did you take the whole battan out or did you just shorten it?

We've also substituted 1/8 inch stainless steel cable for the forestay rope and are attaching it to the top of the mast and the bow pad eye with carabiner clips. The backstays are also attached to the aka brackets with carabiner clips.

Timo


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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:30 pm 
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I got into trouble when my saftey flag (that I forgot to take off of the rudder) jammed my rudder full left and the furling line got tangled in another line up front (anchor line) and the combination of not being able to steer and not being able to reef the jib resulted in crashing my AI in to a wooden dock twice and into a concrete sea wall causing moderate damage to the bow and the starboard ama.. Needless to say I'm going to retire the jib idea for a little while and rethink how I should approach the problem.

The conditions were well beyond the safe wind speed I had tested the jib at . Winds were 15 to 20 and gusting to 25 mph that day and I probably should not have used the job that day.

Lesson learned and I will probably not use the jib for a while while I reconsider it's nessessity and how/if I should redesign if.

I will still provide assistance if you need any though

Good luck on your build timo and just remember to be careful out there, one damaged AI is enough for everyone I think.

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Sterling
2008 Papaya Adventure Island with Roller Furler Jib
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Post about my jib
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 Post subject: Re: Roller Furler Jib
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:15 am 
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Terrible luck. I'll consider this possibility as we build it. Perhaps we can come up with a failsafe release of some kind that would allow the sail to depower and flap free in a pinch. As you describe the accident it sounds like it was the result of a fouled line and not the jib per se. A fouled furler line on the main sail could have had similar consequences, yes?

As we've played with the current system and the trouble with the top of the hobie sail catching at the top of the mast, it occurred to us that if we couldn't get the sail to cooperate well enough we could abandon the small hobie sail and make a custom jib sail. We made such a sail year before last for another boat we were working on. It attached to the jib line with grommets and shower curtain-style rings and would then be hoisted or reefed with a line at the top of the sail that would go through a block that would attach to the top of the mast. Release that line (from the foot of the mast where it would cleat off) and the jib would depower and collapse, and presumably be available to be gathered and secured to a deck bungie. It would also be possible to sew the jib so that it would mount on the pvc pipe as the hobie does and then roller furl, the advantage to a home made sail being that it could be designed to a shape and size that would be just right for the boat and its masts and shrouds. On the other hand the small hobie sail looks so good paired with the main sail.

We'll certainly be careful. I really hope your boat is okay. This must have been horrible to go through.

Timo


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