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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:57 pm 
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Location: Michigan
Thanks for looking out for me Halibut Hunter, that's most brotherly of you and much appreciated! I sure am glad you made it back to shore with no issues other than a rapid heart rate. Hopefully, your PA is fully repaired or will be covered under warranty.
I guess I have a decision to make! If I were to run into trouble, I'd be thankful to have installed the bilge pump. If not, would I regret using up much needed storage space? Will a manual bilge pump be sufficient to get me back to shore? There's no question in my mind that safety comes first. I also have to keep in mind the number of reported leaking PA's vs. all other trouble free PA's. Time to do some serious thinking! Does anyone have any suggestions as to a GOOD manual bilge pump?

Thanks again HH... means a lot to me!

GR8 Laker

PS. I won't let this rattle my psyche and yes, I will have a ball, thanks!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:51 pm 
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
GR8 Laker,
Rule Inc. (available from West Marine or almost any chandlery) Makes a number of small (about 1lb.) bilge pumps. The 500 Gph or 700 Gph are plenty. They take almost no room and will run in conjunction with you fish finder/sonar. Great battery and waterproof box deals available @:http://www.kayakfishingsupplies.com/servlet/the-Batteries-and-Battery-Boxes/Categories . Hook it up to a switch and no need to run it unless... :cry: Use a couple of feet of 3/4" hose to a one way valve coming out on deck somewhere behind seat dumping overboard and you're in! Very simple install and should not hinder storage. Also I'd rather leave a pair of socks behind than have to swim... :D
P.S.
They(West Marine) do carry manual bilge pumps also. I'm sure if you look around online you can find that particular type of bilge pump (Rule) at a lot of other places even cheaper. Rule is a good company with quality marine pumps. I just happened to have a local West Marine, that's why I suggested them.
P.P.S.
If you're worried about charging the battery on your trip, several sites sell solar 12v chargers. This is getting fun huh?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:09 am 
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Cheers for the info, Halibut Hunter,
I must admit that technical gadgetry leaves me scratching my head! I'll be heading to West Marine in a few days to purchase a VHF radio and some 3M silicone sealant for the replacement hatch seals. My limited research into bilge pumps has raised many questions! The Rule 500gph has both a manual and an auto, I'm guessing I should be focusing on the manual style. I have no other electronics mounted on my PA (FF, sonar, GPS) and have no plans to do so. Do you (or does anybody) know the minimum power required to run the Rule manual 500gph? I'm also having trouble determining from the photos where the pump is mounted in the Aussie link you provided.
It's amazing to me how adding one more item to the list comes with multiple requirements to complete. Bilge pump= battery, waterproof box, switch, hose, solar charger...etc! I'm going to purchase a helmet cam but know that this requires other goodies. Helmet Cam= spare batteries, mounting systems, memory cards...etc.
I am a man of limited means. Not too many Michiganders are buying custom made furniture these days so things have become pretty tight. I'm accustomed to buying goods on an "as needed" basis and seldom treat myself to things like the PA (which was a stretch in itself). This trip came to mind shortly after ordering my PA and I hadn't a clue what it would require to do and do with thoroughness. This trip will be a truly unique experience for me and I'm not going to call it quits over something as silly as credit card debt. The experience itself will be priceless!
Thanks again, HH, for all your help!
GR8 Laker
PS. YES, this is getting fun!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:30 pm 
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Quote:
The Rule 500gph has both a manual and an auto, I'm guessing I should be focusing on the manual style. I have no other electronics mounted on my PA (FF, sonar, GPS) and have no plans to do so. Do you (or does anybody) know the minimum power required to run the Rule manual 500gph? I'm also having trouble determining from the photos where the pump is mounted in the Aussie link you provided.
It's amazing to me how adding one more item to the list comes with multiple requirements to complete. Bilge pump= battery, waterproof box, switch, hose, solar charger...etc! I'm going to purchase a helmet cam but know that this requires other goodies. Helmet Cam= spare batteries, mounting systems, memory cards...etc.
I am a man of limited means. Not too many Michiganders are buying custom made furniture these days so things have become pretty tight. I'm accustomed to buying goods on an "as needed" basis and seldom treat myself to things like the PA (which was a stretch in itself). This trip came to mind shortly after ordering my PA and I hadn't a clue what it would require to do and do with thoroughness. This trip will be a truly unique experience for me and I'm not going to call it quits over something as silly as credit card debt. The experience itself will be priceless!
Thanks again, HH, for all your help!
GR8 Laker
PS. YES, this is getting fun!


GR8 Laker,
Rule 500 manual is all you need. You'll need an on off switch, 4-5 ft. of 3/4" hose, a couple of stainless hose clamps and zip ties, a one way valve with an "L" maybe(for deck outlet- lets water out but not in). A 12v 10 amp battery from that link I gave you will run that beast forever, or at least long enough to get you to a safe fix, and if you do decide to get electronics, it will run those also. You only need run it IF you've collected water. The pump in the Aussie photo is located forward of the center hatch against center mast scupper. You could put a switch on forward hatch compartment bulkhead ( in front of drive well) so you could see and get to it easily. I made a closed cell foam cradle for my batter box and it just slides inside the hull under the seat area and held by friction. I know what you mean about being a man of limited means, I'm retired and have been doing this thing on a budget since January. I've got to wait a few more days for monthly retirement check, to see if I can get bilge pump this month. The battery and pump are IMHO worth the extra $ and trouble. I'd rather go without a big greasy burger (like I really need more of those) for a day or two :lol: than see my beloved PA hell bent on imitating the Titanic! :cry:

P.S.
Here is another site where you might get battery, box, and switch a little cheaper:
http://kayakfishinggear.com/batteryboxwiringaccessories.aspx
They are good people to do business with!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:13 pm 
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Thanks for the links, HH,
Do you know, off hand, if one will be better quality than the other? I'd rather spend the $$$ for the good stuff than cut any corners. The kFS link has a complete power system(in a box) with connections already fixed into the side of the battery box. The other link you provided is less expensive but will require more of an investment of time. If they were sitting side by side, which system would you choose? I'm definitely going with the Rule Ind. bilge pump!

Cheers,
GR8 Laker


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:40 pm 
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GR8 Laker, KFS is of superior quality. Pelican box and better battery win the day. I'm going to pick up a spare from them after pump install as well. Pick up a good on/off switch from West Marine and you'll be good to go! Good luck!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:58 pm 
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Halibut hunter wrote:
Use a couple of feet of 3/4" hose to a one way valve coming out on deck somewhere behind seat dumping overboard and you're in!



Hey there Halibut Hunter, yes, it's me again!
I went to West Marine today and loaded up. VHF radio, compass, PFD, hand pump, 3m silicone sealant and of course the rule 500gph bilge pump, 6' of 3/4" hose, band clamps(2), zip ties(8), one way valve and an "L" fitting. The complete battery box power system from KFS has been ordered and should be here early next week. No turning back now, eh!
I had a few questions (and probably more to follow once everything arrives):
-How should the pump be fixed in place. Do I use some zip ties?
-Where do I route the hose through the deck?
-How should that area be treated for waterproofness?
-Can I simply route the outflow hose down one of the rear deck scupper holes?
-Where along the hose do I attach the one way valve (above or below deck)?
-What's the purpose of the "L" fitting?

That should do it for now! Glad you suggested I get a bilge pump? LOL!!!

Thanks for your help and guidance,

GR8 Laker


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:46 pm 
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GR8 Laker,
You and me both! Sounds like West marine got both of us...I spent the day laying things out. I mounted the Pump with a little bit (emphasize little bit) of Marine Goop. Just enough for little "mushrooms" to form through those 4 mounting holes. First, I roughed up the blue mount with light sand paper, same on inside of hull. Cleaned with alcohol and taped in place with duct tape to hold it when I got the outlet pointed where I wanted it. I did a little surgery with a knife on foam floatation next to center hatch scupper post , to make hose and one way fitting conform to foam, and not rub scupper. I'll try and take some pics and get them posted tomorrow. I ran hose to just aft of the seat, and a little to the right of where live bait well sits (near cart scuppers). Hose will hang over the side from "L". I used the clear 3/4" hose by the way. I mounted the water proof switch just to the right of the right hand corner of the seat and wired it "up" for on, "down" for off (just like NASCAR :D ). I zip tied 3/4" hose to scupper posts to the out side of them, making sure no kinks. You'll have fun with the one that you have to get to from rear "twist and seal" hatch. One handed and frustrating till you get it! I know this might sound a little confusing, so I'll try and get pics up tomorrow, though probably not till night time. I haven't finished wiring yet but I'll show in pics how it works. Please note that pump will save UR bacon in the event you have a small leak like I did, but the battery will NOT make it run all day. If you find yourself in trouble, turn on pump and high-tail it to safety ( dry land) to repair leak. Reading up on bilge pumps states a 1" hole will collect 44gals./min that's scary! For the things we're likely to encounter, that pump will probably run efficiently for 2hrs. at max.
We're kinda lucky in the way they work because we don't have to push water uphill too much. Like I said I'll get pics posted to give you ideas. Till then here's an interesting article on the why-fors of bilge pumps. They reference powerboats and those saily thingys, but you'll get the drift! http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm
Cheers till pics!,
HH


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:07 pm 
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OK GR8,
Here's some pics that I hope will help you. I'd forgotten that you'll need to cut hose for valve so, you'll need probably 3 more hose clamps including one for overboard dump hose. Oops! almost forgot, when you drill holes for outlet and switch, use a 7/16" wood boring bit. It is a little small but, you want fitting tight going through hull. You'll have to "wiggle the bit around a bit to get it hogged out just enough to get fitting through. It WILL BE TIGHT. That's what you want. Use a little silicone sealer on the in-hull portion of "L". Then a little on the on deck portion. When you get it good and tight go ahead and seal around where fitting contacts the deck. Now it'll be water proof. Do same thing with your switch I used a 7/16" wood bring bit for that and did the same thing. Remember you want it tight. You'll have to work at it to force them through the holes. Works good, lasts long time! :lol: Also, with you electrical connections, you'll need some liquid electrical tape. Applied after you make connections it will make them waterproof. You need to try and keep wire high in the hull so its not laying in the water all the time but, any gaps in connections should be covered liberally with the stuff. It may not be as important in your fresh water use, but I don't want or need any salt water getting into little nooks and crannies. Anyway the stuff works great! Be careful, it can be messy. Several light coats work better than a big heavy one, and no where near as messy. If you spill it, let dry it will then peel off easily.
If you need more info just holler. I'm not going anywhere. I still have to connect wiring and test the pump. To do that I'll just fill a small bucket with water, unsnap pump from base, put it in water and turn it on and watch water flow (I hope :) )
Image

Pump mounted with Marine Goop at rear of Drive well.
Image

One way valve about 8" from pump sandwiched between foam and zip tied.
Image

Pump hose running to aft deck outlet.
Image

Pump hose connected to aft deck outlet seen from rear twist and seal hatch.
Image

Aft deck outlet. I haven't attached hose yet.
Image

Waterproof switch located at right corner of seat.
Image

Battery Box in foam cradle under seat.
Image

Battery box in "Beautifully sculpted foam cradle."
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:14 pm 
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HH, you are a superstar!!
Everything is clearly documented and easy for me to understand. If I can make sense of it, anyone can!

Halibut hunter wrote:
Use a little silicone sealer on the in-hull portion of "L". Then a little on the on deck portion. When you get it good and tight go ahead and seal around where fitting contacts the deck. Now it'll be water proof.


When you say silicone sealer, should I use the 3M mildew resistant silicone sealer that I purchased or the marine goop? Lastly, will you be running the outflow hose over the side or feeding it down into one of the rear scuppers?

I can't thank you enough for all your help!

GR8 Laker


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:52 pm 
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GR8,
I would use the silicone sealer on the fittings only because it is less permanent. You just want it water tight. Marine Goop can be a real b__ch to get off if you ever have to replace a fitting or switch. I used it on the pump mount because it will hold stronger and if the pump goes bad, all I have to do is plug in a new one to the existing base. I didn't use a lot of it there though either. Just enough to form little mushrooms over the screw holes. I'm just going to dump over the side. I have a Hobie live bait well and it needs those scuppers. I suppose you could just let it drain off the back of the boat, what's it gonna do get the deck wet? :lol:
Anyway, I've just finished my wiring. So, after golf tomorrow (yup, I'm one of them too), I'll test it. Should be no problems. I'll let you know.
Good luck putting the puzzle together!
Cheers, HH


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:55 am 
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Thanks, HH,
I hope you score/scored an all time best and the bilge test run is/was a successful one. I have to go back to West Marine and pick up a few things that had to be ordered and will also pick up a few more band clamps and some liquid electrical tape. Also, what about a fuse? I believe that's what I'm seeing in the background of photo #5 (aft deck outlet). I haven't purchased a 2.5 amp fuse and am not sure if that's part of the complete battery box power system. Until then, I'll tinker with the "puzzle" pieces and get them laid out for the install.

Have a good weekend,

GR8 Laker

PS. I found this site while browsing and am curious to hear your response to this thread. I hope I'm not installing a switch and a pelican case that will let me down.http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34&start=0


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:32 pm 
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GR8 Laker,
Test went great! Everything worked as planned,water went over the side. All is well. Yeah you probably should install a fuse. It'll keep you from hurting the battery. The have in-line waterproof fuses at West Marine. When I bought mine they only had 3 amp though. That shouldn't hurt anything so I did install it. It won't come with the battery & box. The only thing that will come with that is the wired battery in the box and a plug with which to connect electrical items to box. That will connect your pump wiring right to the box. You want to take the brown/positive wire from the pump through the fuse, and run it through the on/off switch to the positive side of the plug and the black/negative wire directly to the negative post on the plug. I'm certain the person on the link was talking about an auto bilge switch. They work like a float in a gas tank, only when it starts to float, it turns on the pump. Those are for larger vessels that stay in the water and are not attended all the time. If you had a nice big "yachette" and you were home in the wee hours all snuggly, warm, and asleep, and your "yachette" decided to spring a leak the switch would start to float thereby turning on the pump and preventing said "yachette" from sinkink down next to grandad's old boot. No you don't need one of those flopping around in the bottom of your boat. The only switch you have to install is a waterproof on/off. Keep in mind though, that you'll need to sneak-a-peak at bilge to check for water every now and then. If you got water, turn on pump :P . If you got no water, no turn on pump! :lol:
P.S. found another link showing how one Aussie did it: http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com/2009/04/shop-electric-bilge-pump-in-kayak.html
Looks like he went to way more trouble than he needed, what with magnetic switch and all.
Read through that forum you gave URL for. Some of those guys are using 12-14 AA rechargeable batteries to run their pumps! I'm sorry, but I would NOT trust those little things to get me out of trouble! Give me that 12v-10 amper every time! I'll deal with a little extra weight.:shock:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:00 pm 
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HH,
Reading the links to both forums is a testament to installing the bilge pump rather than relying on the hand pump (I will have one as a back-up) alone. The posts regarding the "waterproof" pelican battery boxes is a bit unnerving though. I'm going to stick with the toggle switch method for now as the other methods discussed in your link are beyond my capabilities, let alone my understanding, to do with any confidence. The freshwater environment should work in my favor and I may look into alternative methods after this season.
Glad to hear your install was a success and hopefully your golf outing was as well. I'll let you know what I find out from the good folks at Brunton regarding the SolarRoll. I should find out Monday if rolling the unit to the half way point or less will lower the wattage to an acceptable amount for trickle charging. Thanks for the usual quick response!
Be well,
GR8 Laker
Halibut hunter wrote:
You want to take the brown/positive wire from the pump through the fuse, and run it through the on/off switch to the positive side of the plug and the black/negative wire directly to the negative post on the plug.

PS. Do I need to pick up more wire from West Marine in order to run the brown through fuse>on/off>plug? "Through" is confusing me! Sorry for the hassle! If I were to do this on my own, I'd find myself next to Grandad's boot!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:50 pm 
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GR8 Laker,
First off, I don't know what that guy was wankin' about concerning Pelican cases. I've NEVER had one fail. I've used them for anything from guns to camera equipt. and NEVER EVER had a failure. So, unless they've recently started manufacturing them in Botswana, I wouldn't worry!
Also when I say running the hot wire though the switch. Think about it this way. You have pump with wire coming out of it. You go to one side of switch and connect. You go to the other terminal of switch and come off of it to power. It's really still the same wire. The switch is an interrupter in that ONE wire. The wire still goes through it, you just have to realize you now have a way to break it open (turn it off) or to close it (turn it on). The black wire (from the pump) goes straight to the negative side of the battery. Your fuse always goes in-line with the positive and before the switch. So, you'll take brown wire, connect it to one side of waterproof fuse. Take another brown (or to make things easier cause the brown isn't that long, a piece of red wire), connect it to the other side of the waterproof in-line fuse link. From there to one side of the switch. The other side of switch to positive side of battery. And lastly, you hook up black wire to Negative side of battery, keeping in mind the plug being supplied with your battery/box kit. Pay attention to when the plug is in the socket provided, which side is +positive (red) and which side is negative(black) and connect the wires from the switch and the pump accordingly. The plug will only fit one way, so find out which side of the socket in the battery box is connected to the red (+ positive side of the battery) and which side is connected to the black (negative side of the battery). If I remember on the switch there is one side of the threaded mounting post with a groove in it. When switch is flipped towards that, it is off. I mounted that side down. Now, to turn on pump, I flip switch up to turn pump on. I'd get a little extra wire, say 6 feet red and 6 feet black 16 gauge wire. That'll give you plenty of room to work with. Some good connectors ( maybe the crimp then heat shrink type) or better yet solder the connections then cover with liquid electrical tape real good. If you use the crimp then heat shrink type, after shrinking, cover connector with liquid electrical tape as well. That should do it. I hope I've described it well enough for you. I used to work with dc voltage in my profession, and it became 2nd nature as to how things worked. So, sometimes I assume everyone knows what I'm talking about. Bad habit! If I can explain more let me know. I'll be happy to oblige!


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