Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:13 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:10 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:06 am
Posts: 4
Location: Michigan
I have heard alot of rumors...so I wanted to ask those who know!

How has the Tiger design changed since it was released? What changes are happening currently or in the next design change (when?)?

Is the Tiger considered a ONE DESIGN at Hobie events such as traveling regatta's?

I own a Nacra F18 and am considering a change.

Sean

_________________
Sean Fidler
248 703 8950


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:19 am 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 4593
Location: Detroit, MI
Hi Sean,

The Tiger has gone through some design changes - mostly related to ease of production. None of these changes have affected the speed potential. The hulls / foils have not changed. The sails have changed to keep up with changes in the F-18 - pin head mains to SX to STX.

They do race as one-design separate from the F-18's. There's a very active group to the east of us in western New York. The Hobie Division 16 regattas will draw about 10 Tigers to their events.

In the Detroit area, we have 4 active Tigers - myself (although I tend to sail the H-16 more), John Bauldry, Paul Krutty and Gregg Kittinger. Gregg and I have 2002 Alter Cup boats, Paul has a 2004 and John has a 2005 Worlds boat. They are all pretty evenly matched.

Matt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Tiger dominance...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:04 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:06 am
Posts: 4
Location: Michigan
Matt,

Thanks...

Interesting how dominant the Tiger seems to be on the international and north american level in the F18's even though the design has remained relatively unchanged! Any thoughts on why that is?

Thanks,

Sean

_________________
Sean Fidler
248 703 8950


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:46 am 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 4593
Location: Detroit, MI
In some cases I think it's because the top racers (Booth / Thomas) just happen to work for Hobie (Mitch Booth especially). Maybe it's because the design hasn't changed - sailors have had more chance to optimize that particular platform rather than jumping to a new one that will take time to optimize.

The reality is that they are probably the most common F-18 platform and therefore the most available to charter, etc. when top racers go from continent to continent.

In CRAM, I am very fast against the Nacra F-18's in certain conditions (upwind/heavy air), but I still have a lot to learn about sailing a spinnaker boat downwind, so it's hard to tell what's going on. I don't have a consistent crew on the boat, which makes a huge difference.

I think if Matt/Dominique hadn't had boat problems in VA last summer, they would have given Greg & Jacques a lot more trouble. The Tiger and the (old) Nacra F-18 are very evenly matched in almost every condition.

The additional aspect of Tiger one-design racing is a nice adjunct to the F-18 racing, though. The Tiger is an ISAF International Class, which means that ISAF has the final say on class rule changes. If Hobie tried to do what Nacra is doing with the F-18 (new platform), they'd have to call it something else.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:27 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:06 am
Posts: 4
Location: Michigan
Excellent points! Thanks!

In the end...I dont think I want to continue to lose 4k a year to attempt keep up with Nacra's "state of the art" as the spit out new designs and marketing every 6 months. Especially when they are not really proving faster than the Tiger anyway.

For me...I want to race as much one design as possible and the Nacra regional racing (such as CRAM or CRAW) is getting more fractal every year with every new design. Keep in mind that I am getting pretty close to the top of that range but I still dont like knowing that my design is considerably different than all older boats and is assumed to be faster!

To me...the latest Nacra F18 design named "Infusion" or "Samuri" (whatever) is probably going to be slightly faster off the wind (according to a heavy internal marketing blitz)...but since only a couple sailors will have one next year due to the almost certain CONSIDERABLY higher price tag...it will be a further streching of the speed potential within the F18 fleeet in CRAMS regional Nacra events. I just dont get the point of allowing new design each and every year. This only benifits the winners of the worlds and hurts the sailing enjoyment for every single owner down range from that winner if the top design is truly faster. Its getting a little ridiculous to see all the changes and marketing hype!

Someone in CRAM are already sending me "information" that Hobie has developed a new F18 design. This would be shocking to me to see Hobie leave its ownership in the tigers out in the wind as Nacra seems to do without thought.

_________________
Sean Fidler
248 703 8950


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: New 2006 Hobie Tiger
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:18 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:06 am
Posts: 4
Location: Michigan
Is there any truth to Hobie designing and building a new updated hobie tiger for 2006? Any speed enhanced changes to the 2006 model?

Thanks in advance!

Sean

_________________
Sean Fidler
248 703 8950


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:34 am 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 4593
Location: Detroit, MI
At the risk of innundating you with superflous information, what follows are the notes from the IHCA Rules Committee meeting that was held in South Africa a month ago. As you can see, there is nothing mentioned concerning major changes to the Tiger - mostly stuff that has been mentioned before - eliminating the jib furler, fully battened jib, etc. There is mention of developing a high-tech singlehanded boat, but that's some way off in the future.

The IHCA Rules Committee is made up of 5 members - 2 elected (sailors), 2 appointed (the two major manufacturers) and an Alter Family representative.

Quote:
IHCA Rules Committee Meeting
29 October, 2005
Port Elizabeth, South Africa

PROWORD:
As it can be seen many issues and ideas were aired and discussed. However, it shall be noted that no formal decisions were made except for approving the minutes from SB. The formal procedure on the Tiger panel layout upgrade etc. is first supposed to start at the time when submissions potentially may hit the IHCA table. /eo



Minutes

1. After introductions and welcome, the meeting was called to order at 15.00 by Erik Olsen, Chairman.

Present:
Erik Olsen-Chairman…EO
John Dinsdale ………..JSD
Steve Fields carrying the proxy of Mal Gray….SF
Jeff Alter proxy being carried by Erik Olsen.
Doug Skidmore, though intending to attend was excused due to illness.

2. Minutes of the prior meeting at Santa Barbara, March, 2005 were approved, with the exception of comments from EO which reminded JSD to make a submission concerning 9b concerning trapeze wires, to specify that those may be supplied using spectra, as an exception to the more traditional stainless wire.

3. Hobie Tiger sails…panel lay out/configuration raised by HCE.

a. EO suggested to JSD that a submission should be made in order for a discussion to be developed concerning the opening up of panel layout. JSD mentioned that open panel layout on some boats, particularly the technical boats, i.e. Tiger, FX 1, Fox, should be considered, as particularly these products are more often confronted with technical evolution suggestions, whether for marketing or appearance perception, in order to keep up with the times. In addition, different cloth suppliers, as well as plotters may have different dimensions, requiring adjustment in panel layout, in order to have optimum cloth usage in order to control cost.

b. Assuming a submission to be forthcoming, the discussed timeline may be as early as March, 2006, for Europe, exception of the tiger worlds in Cangas, July, 2006. For the other regions, the suggested timeline would be Jan. 2007, or sooner, if requested by a particular region.

c. Additional submission required as per allowing mylar fox jibs, as well as re-cut revised version of the Hobie 16 spi. Timeline as per above, unless otherwise decided by the Rules Committee.

d. As per the Tiger upgrades of Dec 2004, the introduction of allowing the deletion of the furler, as well as allowance of the fully battened jib, should in principle coincide with the effective date voted by the Formula 18 class, i.e. Jan 2007. It should be noted that not only would there be another panel layout, but more importantly the outline configuration of the fully battened jib would most likely be changed, in order to take into consideration the deletion of the jib furler.

4. Grand Master crew questionnaire is out and will be reviewed and results monitored till March, 2006, at which time the Rules committee will potentially make a recommendation to the council. For the 2006 Europeans, it was suggested that a Grand Master division be added to the NOR, which is due out soon. Discussion as to the ruling of the crew age for that event was considered, with no particular conclusion reached, other than a general desire to try to follow the class rules.

5. Equipment problems in the South American region: Delivery of a bare mast tube to a Hobie customer, does not receive approval from the RC as being class legal. All manufactures are requested to deliver finished class legal masts only, as well as refraining from delivering bare extrusions to end users.

As to the class/manufacture issues in the south American region, the rules committee strongly recommend Hobie Cat Co. USA to invest heavily in time, energy, as well as resources, where required, in order to reestablish Hobie Cat, as well as the class in the South American region.

6. ISAF Submission – Rule 21 interpretation, 360 degree, RC suggests to await ISAF conference discussion outcome…same thing for ISAF submissions 138-05 which pertains to the racing rules of Sailing, allowing the classes to have a default penalty without having to rely on Race Committees to alter sailing instructions.

7. Limit the frequency of IHCA rule changes to annually:

Although the intention is understood, the RC must administrate over 12 classes currently, six of which have international status with ISAF. Rule changes are dictated by necessity and by in large, the vast majority of rule changes do respect an annual sequence, with ISAF due diligence, however the current trend is to allow for more timely passing of rule changes, that is more rapidly than currently. The Hobie 16 jib halyard adjustment was an exception to the normal procedure and was deemed necessary. The overall feeling of the RC was that the discovered improvement would be more advantageous long term, due to the sizes and importance of the class.

9. Hobie 16 jib halyard systems …orientation from the manufactures: Briefly, HCE, as well as HCC and HCA appear to be supplying almost identical systems. Due to extreme loads on the jib halyard, the large # 150 Harken Cam cleat requires a larger than desired halyard rope. A smaller rope could be used, however a suitable cam cleat which would hold the loads would be needed to be sourced.

Downhaul/Cunningham kit wording needs to be reworded to specify, that the cleat MUST be attached to the bottom of the mast, with the end of the downhaul rope to be threaded under the trampoline, and attached to a shock cord, to be attached to the bottom rear of the trampoline in order to tidy up the deck of the Hobie 16.

NEW BUSINESS :
JSD mentioned that the Hobie 16 jib clew may want to be reviewed, in order to maintain ideal sheeting angle, taking into account the current extreme mast rake being raced, as well as the integrated jib traveler track. SF agreed and mentioned that the bridle lengths currently at 44 inches minimum, place the spi pole extremely low…possibly too low …if the clew of the jib is reviewed, then at the same time, the bridle lengths should be reviewed.
Hobie 16 spi update should be reviewed, should point A review on jib clew and bridle length be reviewed.
Casual discussion concluded the rules committee meeting regarding the value of considering as to whether a new hi-tech single-handed may be of interest to produce, sell through the traditional dealer distribution and then eventually develop, as a new racing class, whether one design or open. However, the feeling was unanimous that a niche is currently there, however the product should be one design.

Meeting adjourned at 19.00
John Dinsdale Rules Committee Meeting Secretary

The “new” IHCA Rules Committee
As it may already be known then Mal Gray (AUS) and Erik Olsen (DEN) were re-elected by Council at the recent AGM for a new term in the Rules Committee. The Rules Committee has subsequently elected Erik Olsen as their chairman. The “new” Rules Committee after the Port Elizabeth AGM is composed as follows:

Jeff Alter (USA) - Alter Family representative
John Dinsdale (FRA) - Appointee Hobie Cat Europe
Mal Gray (AUS) – Elected by the IHCA Council
Doug Skidmore (USA) - Appointee Hobie Cat USA
Erik Olsen (DEN) - Elected by the IHCA Council


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Changes?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:41 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 8982
Location: Oceanside, California
Sean Michigan wrote:
Is there any truth to Hobie designing and building a new updated Hobie tiger for 2006? Any speed enhanced changes to the 2006 model?

Thanks in advance!

Sean


The basic Hobie philosophy is very important here. Little or no changes to keep the fleets as equal as possible. This certainly has been working for the Hobie Classes and the Tiger. Sean's comments about what is going on with Nacra are exactly what we try to avoid. As written by Matt Bounds... these changes are not just up to Hobie or the class for that matter. They have to pass review by ISAF.

Other than the few items raised at the Worlds AGM as Matt posted... we at Hobie Cat USA are unaware of any new changes or platform changes being planned for the Tiger or F18 sailing.

Now... Hobie Cat France could have ongoing development that we are not made aware of. If I were them I might be looking at the Capricorn and the new Nacra to be sure the Tiger is still competitive in the F18 circuit. That is just due diligence. The F18 racing is all about development. Reality is neither of the other platforms have proved anything as yet. Of course the Nacra is far from that, as it is simply in the design and testing stage at this point.

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group