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 Post subject: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:56 am 
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Location: Sedona/Scottsdale, AZ
I've already thought about sailing armed. For me kayak camping is a large part of my use and shooting is more of a sport. There is also the aspect of self defense against two-legged critters and four. I have a very nice stainless steel, Ruger Super Redhawk in .44 Remington Magnum that would probably be among my first choices to bring with me. That and or my lil' SW M317, an aluminum framed, 8 shot .22LR revolver that is almost ALWAYS with me while hiking. At 12 OZs unloaded, it's light as a feather and I love it! My carbine size AR15 broken down and in a Pelican case would make for a good choice when stored up under the front hatch or in the rear cargo bay.

My main concern would be mountain lions at the waters edge (not always easily scared off as some might suggest), bears drawn to camp looking for food and thieves or lunatics, as shown here. My .44 Redhawk would be more than sufficient for all listed examples! :wink:

Another application may be water fowling, which I have yet to really consider or pursue.

What firearms would you consider sailing with and why?

Or why not, if you are the type who is opposed to guns, shooting, self-defense and gun ownership in general?

I admit that laws will differ from State to State here in the US and the question may not even apply, depending on your country's excessively restrictive gun laws.

I would also like to keep this thread from becoming a gun ownership debate in general, as much as possible. 8)

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Psalm 107:23, 24 (KJV)
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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:18 pm 
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I am a concealled carry permit holder, so essentially I carry wherever I go, but yes, there is a distinct need to be armed (IMO) when kayaking alone in unpopulated country. I was actually shot at once when I had ventured too close to shore where an isolated house was being used (I suspect) in some form of drug enterprise. Fortunately, I was at least 200 yards away, maybe more, and I saw no splashes nearby so I just high-tailed it out of there. Also, I was once suspiciously tailed by a powerboat for some minutes. It was a bit disconcerting until they finally motored alongside and started asking enthusiastic questions about the Hobie. As it turns out they were pacing me, and were amazed at my speed. For those few minutes, though, I had my hand near my firearm. I usually carry a small .22 revolver, although occasionally I'll opt for a 9mm semiauto.

Remember, never ever brandish a firearm or willfully engage in a confrontation unless it is absolutely essential and you are fearful of your safety.

Keith


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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Keith, Your last line is good advice. I always encourage people to know thier laws and be respectful of others. Here in AZ our long stang open carry law has just been superceded by SB1108, the Consitutional Carry law that just became valid. We still have reciprocity for all States CCWs, but AZ residents no longer need a CCW to carry concelled. More here on the effects of SB1108. SB1108 not withsatnding, I still recommend a CCW class, if only for the education and information about the responsibilities and ramifications of carrying a weapon.

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SedonaAI


'08 Revolution (SOLD!)
'07 Adventure Island
'07 Adventure Island

Psalm 107:23, 24 (KJV)
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep.


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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:07 pm
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Location: Ontario, Canada
Quote:
What firearms would you consider sailing with and why?

Or why not, if you are the type who is opposed to guns, shooting, self-defense and gun ownership in general?


Not trying to stir the gun debate at all, (or religion debate), but I'm SO glad to live in a country where if I'm kayaking, and a motorboat is following me, the last thing on my mind is that I may need to shoot at someone. Also to live in a country where if you're in a motorboat, curious to see this amazing boat called a Hobie kayak, you never have to worry that you're about to speak with a kayaker who's got one hand on a gun.


Quote:
depending on your country's excessively restrictive gun laws.

... or maybe excessively permissive? Depends on your perspective.

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Last edited by augaug on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Quote:
and a motorboat is following me, the last thing on my mind is that I may need to shoot at someone. Also to live in a country where if you're in a motorboat, curious to see this amazing boat called a Hobie kayak, you never have to worry that you're about to speak with a kayaker who's got one hand on a gun.


Understood. But, I didn't explain the circumstances. The boat contained some rather loud, rowdy, early 20s males who were obviously drinking, or at least acting as if they were. After passing me, they stopped their boat about 400 yards in front of me, turned it and basically 'stared me down' for the length of time it took me to catch up to them. A friendly wave and a smile elicited no reaction. As soon as I passed the boat motor started and they began pacing me at my 5 o'clock with the motor barely idling. Now, analyzing their actions after the fact leads me to the same conclusion that I had before they started talking to me...they were acting in an intimidating and decidedly unfriendly manner and I believe I had good cause for concern.


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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:29 pm 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
I really don't want to wade into this, so I'll try to leave it at this post. I do believe that too many people are killed by guns each year, and wish that people wouldn't feel a false sense of security by carrying one.

In the description above, I have no doubts that you may have felt threatened, but in America, each one of those "loud, rowdy, early 20's males, who were obviously drinking" could also be carrying guns. Even if you did end up having reason to be concerned, each of them could have shot back at you, sure you might get one, maybe two, but I still don't like your chances. In the end, multiple families are left to pick up the emotional pieces. I've seen too many stories of families who have lost loved ones forever due to misunderstandings that would never happen if guns were more restricted.

I like my country. I like my freedom. The freedom to know that I am safe, not because I carry a weapon, but because others don't. Are there risks in this world? Sure there are, but sometimes the American attitudes towards guns fail to recognize that things like " excessively restrictive" gun laws are actually the norm in most civilized countries, and many people believe that those laws are a good thing, because they have been proven to be good.

Personally, I really don't think there should be a need for personal protection guns on a kayak. I live in Canada, and if you want to talk about wildlife, we've got it all. I'm not anti-gun, and think there are plenty of justified weapons for hunting. A handgun wouldn't be one of them.

I just find it sad that in a civilized country like the United States of America, there is so much fear that the solution has to be a lethal weapon as the best option to protect oneself. Too often, the trigger is pulled before all options are exhausted, and lives are changed forever. Other countries have chosen to deal with fear in a different way, and although different, it's not wrong. Excessively restrictive, can be better then excessively permissive, it is a concept worth considering.

I stand by my statement that I'm proud to live in a country where I don't have to have a hand on a lethal weapon because there are a bunch of 20 year olds out on a motorboat having a good time. I'm 31, I could have been one of those 20 something guys. I like that I don't have to worry that my curiousity about a kayak could be my last thoughts before one of my stupid friends says or does something to make another feel threatened. The fact that you felt threatened, doesn't mean that they were threatening, and like I've said, there are far too many stories of people with a hand on a weapon, and lives being shattered forever.

I'll try to stay out of this debate from here on out, sorry to take over the thread, but if you have a weapon that you keep for anything other then hunting, please, please, keep it securely locked up. Protect it from theft. And maybe... just maybe, consider leaving it at home when you kayak.

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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:48 am 
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Location: Point Lookout, Maryland
If I were after waterfowl during hunting season, I'd take a shotgun - probably a marine version because our TI is such a wet ride. Nothing else though.

I've been on the water most of my life and have never had an experience that made me feel compelled to carry a firearm with me for self-defense. I must also say that the idea of packing heat on a kayak boggles my mind and I would avoid being around anyone that I knew was packing heat out of concern that they would actually use it.

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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:34 am 
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Posts: 71
Location: Fort Walton Beach, Florida
I personally dont carry on my yak....I dont camp much honestly..although sounds like it might be fun.
The main reason I dont carry is because I worry about the saltwater environment too much to risk my guns.
If I had to choose, I would definately go for the S&W polymers or the like in Glocks. (I own the Glocks and Smiths)
I would also invest heavily in some sort of oil after each and every trip too.....a rusted gun would be worthless unless I had a really good throwing arm.

Those are just my preferences of course and we are all entitled to make our own personal weapon choices....
Be they knife, stick, words or guns. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:39 pm 
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In Utah, you can get a concealed carry permit without ever having fired a round to demonstrate competence. They say they are permitting the carrying, not the use.... I own guns, long and short, but it seems like a terribly insecure bunch who so fears for their safety with every heartbeat that they have to be armed to venture forth from their homes... no doubt their homes are fortresses, as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:37 am 
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Location: Homosassa, Florida
I've been water fowling for years. By far the best shotgun I have found is a cheap Remington or Winchester Pump. Spray it down before you go, spray it down after you return, and clean it after hunting season whether it needs it or not. An expensive gun in a boat or hunting blind is just crazy.

Most important "Don't hunt nothing the dawg can't carry"

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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:02 am 
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Location: Sedona/Scottsdale, AZ
Let’s start by defining some inconvenient truths:

To think that large, predatory mammals, aggressive reptiles, rabid scavengers, lunatics, drug addicts or thieves can be persuaded not to attack you or steal from you with logic, kindness or pleas for mercy is overtly simplistic and idealistically naive.

It is wrong to think that you will never be victimized by hurtful people because the government of your “civilized country” or state has decided that the responsibility for your self-protection is better left to those more suited to firearms possession and handling then you.

It is impractical and unwise to repel a circling shark with small arms fire from the surface; a wounded shark would most likely draw more sharks. And as we know, sharks are only found in two hemispheres, the northern and the southern! :wink:

It is as much a reactionary, fear-based prejudice to “avoid being around anyone that (you) knew was packing heat out of concern that they would actually use it”, as it is to avoid kayaking with homos because they might start doing each other! Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on your perspective, there is more water on this planet than there is tolerance or lack thereof.

I take my personal security with less flippancy and more gravity and activism than “Let us pray for help”.

Packing a first aid kit, folding knife, signal flare or firearm on a kayak all come with implicit responsibility of education of use; each should only be used with careful appropriateness and only when needed. I would be more concerned about the likelihood of being treated by someone with a first aid kit who has hasn’t heard of the Hippocratic Oath than being around a gun owner who hasn’t heard of the four basic rules of gun safety.

Kayaking itself can be dangerous, the purpose of the OP was to help understand how to best mitigate the dangers that can be presented when you are accosted by those who would do you harm, two legged or four. I respect the fact that not everyone wants to own a firearm, much less kayak with one! There are many situations, most in fact, when I would not consider it; like day sailing, surf kayaking and on and on.

But there are also forms of kayaking, such as kayak camping, remote area kayaking and extended touring, when it may be in your best interests to regard your personal safety as your responsibility and not rely on Authorities who are either out of cell phone range, indifferent or otherwise incapable of protecting you from a serious situation in which you could help yourself by considering kayaking with a gun.

Given that, the intent of the OP was to try to refine our choices and their applications.

Synovis, I think you're right on about the poly framed arms, the Ruger LCP or other sub-compact poly gun may be one of the best choices! The problem with my Super Redhwak in it's bandoleer crossdraw holster is that it would be impractical to wear while afloat and too heavy incase of capsize! As a camp gun, there would be no better.

Ranger908, Good to hear from expieriance! Would a semi have an advantage over a pump? For me, either would require a leash to the boat! :lol: Even with the kayak you hunt with a dog for retrival?

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SedonaAI


'08 Revolution (SOLD!)
'07 Adventure Island
'07 Adventure Island

Psalm 107:23, 24 (KJV)
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep.


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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:17 am 
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Location: Homosassa, Florida
Sedona

Your truths are right on. The total list adds up to each individual is responsible for their own safety. First aid kits, spare parts, radios, a eperb, and most importantly toilet paper are far more important for most outings than a firearm. In my mind the outing dictates the equipment necessary, sometimes a firearm is right behind the toilet paper on the list.

Yes, shooting a shark from the surface is a questionable practice, although it might be fun. You have to know which direction the sharks circles counterclockwise or clockwise. I know it depends on north or south of the equator.

I have only used the kayak a limited number of times for duck hunting. It was all going to protected marshland where the dog could operate from land. Used the dog for retrieval, but mostly for companionship and a great flotation devise. In reality kayak water fowling was not a good experience; cold, damp, decoys tangled ever where, coffee taste like salt water, and just now enough room. I don't think I would use the dog for open water as it is difficult to get her in and out if you don't have outriggers with a tramp. I recommend the pump because it is much less likely to malfunction in the environment and breaks down completely for cleaning. Never used a leash on the gun. Had a leash on the case.


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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:35 am 
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A rifle like the Henry Arms Survival .22 (an updated USAF AR-7) that float and breaks down into its buttstock seems ready made for extended kayak or canoe touring.

Keith


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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:40 pm 
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Quote:
Understood. But, I didn't explain the circumstances. The boat contained some rather loud, rowdy, early 20s males who were obviously drinking, or at least acting as if they were. After passing me, they stopped their boat about 400 yards in front of me, turned it and basically 'stared me down' for the length of time it took me to catch up to them. A friendly wave and a smile elicited no reaction. As soon as I passed the boat motor started and they began pacing me at my 5 o'clock with the motor barely idling. Now, analyzing their actions after the fact leads me to the same conclusion that I had before they started talking to me...they were acting in an intimidating and decidedly unfriendly manner and I believe I had good cause for concern.


If they were so intimidating, why didn't you just shoot'em... that'd show'em who they were starin' at, by golly!... Make you feel better, too! Why carry if you're not going to use it?

What possible circumstances would provoke you to the point where you'd feel justified to shoot somebody and how likely is it, do you suppose, that you're going to encounter such circumstances in your kayak?


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 Post subject: Re: Guns for kayaking?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:46 pm 
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(censored) wrote:
Quote:
Understood. But, I didn't explain the circumstances. The boat contained some rather loud, rowdy, early 20s males who were obviously drinking, or at least acting as if they were. After passing me, they stopped their boat about 400 yards in front of me, turned it and basically 'stared me down' for the length of time it took me to catch up to them. A friendly wave and a smile elicited no reaction. As soon as I passed the boat motor started and they began pacing me at my 5 o'clock with the motor barely idling. Now, analyzing their actions after the fact leads me to the same conclusion that I had before they started talking to me...they were acting in an intimidating and decidedly unfriendly manner and I believe I had good cause for concern.


If they were so intimidating, why didn't you just shoot'em... that'd show'em who they were starin' at, by golly!... Make you feel better, too! Why carry if you're not going to use it?
What possible circumstances would provoke you to the point where you'd feel justified to shoot somebody and how likely is it, do you suppose, that you're going to encounter such circumstances in your kayak?


I understand your concern. However, if you research the stringent legal vetting and criminal background checks required before someone is allowed to possess a Concealed Weapons Permit (which are nearly identical in all states that allow them) then look at how many are revoked once issued, you'll find that such licensees are some of the most law abiding folks out there. Licenses can be revoked for something as simple as a restraining order during a nasty divorce for instance. The number revoked is one per hundreds of thousands. If the public as a whole were as law abiding as CWP holders, the need for police would be drastically reduced. The facts are that CWP holders do not act in the manner that, with tongue in cheek, you suggest I should have.

Since getting out of the military in 1991, I have carried a concealed weapon legally and have drawn it exactly ZERO times, even when I WAS shot at while in my kayak as I've already described. Your vitriol is indicative of someone who has an extreme phobia and prejudice about guns and their owners, regardless of how many you claim to own.

And now I will respectfully bow out of this delightful conversation, as it is obvious no opinions will be changed on the matter, regardless of the facts.

Keith


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