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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:11 pm 
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Location: Port Macquarie, Australia
dosjers wrote:
It will make you a better sailor if you learn to control your boat under sail and take out the training wheels.
Jerry, looks like you have nice wide waterways available to you - St Johns River. Not quite the same as tacking upwind, against a current, in a 30-50 yard wide channel. I'll leave the training wheels in for that!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:19 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
That is well-said Chris.

I will not campaign for or against the use of training wheels. I keep them in and against the hull most of the time, but enjoy using the drives when facing several conditions here in Hawai'i (other than being cramped and bored).

1. In open swells and chop, they help keep the boat from constantly stalling in the troughs.
2. Sailing light winds, I find a little nudge from the pedals keeps me pointed upwind better.
3. Surfing downwind swells, they invaluable for maintaining the AI in best position to the wave.
4. When sailfishing, you need to execute smooth, gradual turns, so they are a must to keep your lines from crossing.
5. With a fish on- priceless. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:30 pm 
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Location: Saint Johns, Florida
Hey guys,

If you need the drives installed to be comfortable sailing I understand. My wife sails with her's in all the time. I'm just saying that if you want to learn to sail learn not to depend on the training wheels.

There are many people who have bought 30 plus foot boats who have removed the engines to get more storage and then sailed around the world. But then I see many people motor sailing when the conditions are perfect for sailing.

I'm not a purest. I always tie a mirage drive in to my boat when I go sailing but if conditions are such that I install it I don't try to kid myself. If I am using the mirage drive I am NOT sailing. About two weeks ago I put in at a ramp, installed my mirage drive and peddled through a narrow channel before I unfurled my sail. Then I pulled my drive, sailed for 5 hours, furled my sail, then peddled through the channel back to the ramp. The drives are very useful and come in handy. Ssometimes it doesn't make sense to sail especially if the wind dies.

chrisj wrote:
Jerry, looks like you have nice wide waterways available to you - St Johns River. Not quite the same as tacking upwind, against a current, in a 30-50 yard wide channel. I'll leave the training wheels in for that!


I agree in a narrow channel they make life easier but in the video with Max sailing with three kids on board it looked like he was out in open water and he had his drives installed and was using them every time he tacked.

My point is if you are in a sailboat and you are using auxiliary power from an engine, oars, a paddle, or a mirage drive you are not sailing. It's OK not to use these devices but don't kid yourself, if you can't tack your boat without peddling you really can't sail.

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St. Johns, Florida
2010 TI
2008 AI


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:29 pm 
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Location: Calga NSW, Australia
Jerry, I'm sure that Max is capable of tacking his boat without pedalling. From what I hear, the TI is fairly easy to tack.
The point is, the boat can be made to perform better with a bit of judicious pedalling. One of the joys of the Mirage drive is that you can tack at virtually no "cost" - ie without losing speed. This enables you to be more responsive to shifts in the wind and to tack more frequently.
Whether this conforms to your definition of sailing or not, it makes for a faster and more exhilarating ride.
It's ridiculous to suggest the Mirage drive slows the boat down if it's actually being used, except possibly when sailing fast downwind in a strong breeze.
You may not see yourself as a purist, but you choose not to use the drive, then condemn others who are just out trying to get the most from their boats as "not really sailing".
I guess those sea kayakers who put sails on their boats aren't really kayaking either, but they seem to be enjoying themselves anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:23 am 
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chrisj,

This whole discussion started because folks were talking about ways to make their boats sail faster and I still say pulling the drives is the easiest and cheapest way to make that happen.

Before I bought my TI I sailed an AI and so did my wife. We both have similar sailing experience and skills. When both boats were configured the same we sailed at about the same speed. One day we did a test, my wife put her drive in and used it to tack similar to what Max was doing. She wasn't able to keep up with me. Being a somewhat scientifically thinking couple we then switched and I put my drive in and she took her's out. Then I could not keep up with her. I don't know the wind speed the day of our experiment but we were sailing in the 4 to 5 knot range.

So what I'm saying is that according to the tests we did you loose speed on all points of sail with the drive in if you only use it to peddle through a tack.

Yes, sailboats slow down when tacking but a large part of learning to sail is being able to tack your boat without stalling which you will never learn if you keep relying on your drive.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:53 pm 
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Thanks chrisj, I'm with you. And yes, I can tack without the trainer wheels. :wink:

Cutting a couple of hours of vid down to a mere 4 mins is harder than I would have thought, and takes a lot of time. I figured that watching 40-50 clips of me tacking with trainer wheels through the channels wouldn't be as interesting as capturing the looks on the boys faces when we were moving! 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:07 pm 
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The original start of this thread is valid and I would like to pursue and continue to hear valid points. :)

Using the Mirage drive for a tack????, I remember when my uncle first got a Depth Finder. Many said is was like cheating,,,,PLEASE!!!! Training Wheels?? You JUDGE our intellect. :roll: My intention is to bring this craft to bear, and break myself or the craft as it is designed, money is not even a consideration at this point. I will use ALL its tools. I have pulled the drive on a long haul, for MAYBE about a .3 Knt increase. Now I keep it in and do a lazy stroke which is way more benificial. Raisies the waterline and keeps my mind engaged on the long track. You might be happy with sailing lil puddles and back water areas. But this is about Sport Fishing for me and my likes. That sail gets me home, those peddles let me tame a beast. Together,, its a machine. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:49 am 
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Go for it, Sammy! The Islands are terrific craft, that's for sure. I have to get a couple more things sorted on my TI, then it's offshore for me - wide open space, swells, waves - yee-haa! :D
sammy925 wrote:
...this is about Sport Fishing for me and my likes...
Looking forward to the pics mate!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:45 am 
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sammy925 wrote:
I have pulled the drive on a long haul, for MAYBE about a .3 Knt increase.

Thank you for agreeing with me. Pulling the drive doesn't cost anything, it's easy, and you sail faster.

The drives do make the AI's and TI's more flexible and I use mine a lot of times when I'm not sailing but you must have a magic drive if it "raises your waterline".

sammy925 wrote:
You might be happy with sailing lil puddles and back water areas. But this is about Sport Fishing for me and my likes.

Just to set the record straight I usually sail in salt water even though there is a ramp that puts me on the St. Johns a lot closer to my house. I have also made a couple of trips to the other side of Florida and sailed in the Gulf. Before I switched to the Island series of boats I sailed extensively in the Pacific NW, San Franciso area, and San Diego. In June I spent a week sailing in the British Virgin Islands. So, the fact that you go "Sport Fishing" really doesn't impress me but the fact that peddling your boat keeps your mind engaged sure does.

Getting back to the original thread, why would you want to go through the time and expense to install a taller mast to improve the sailing characteristics of a boat when all you have to do is peddle faster?

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St. Johns, Florida
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