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 Post subject: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:13 am 
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Posts: 466
Lots is/has been written about problems with Wave's sails not setup so that ALL the telltales will stream correctly at the same time.

But, doesn't the mast over-rotate and kill sail shape making that impossible?

Out dorking around recently in 10 mph winds. Gusts would whip up, the mast rotate around, good sail shape would lessened. The sail lift on the boat lessened.

(As a joke, wife calls sail lift "the Bertolli" -- which is the name of the pizza sauce -- for Bernoulli in the "Bernoulli Principle".)

Hey, there is nothing like sail lift. It's what sailing is all about.

To save the lift, tied an extension on the downhaul line after the downhaul cleat on the mast. As the wind gusted, I pulled back on the extension and stopped the mast from over-rotating. It needed more force to hold than anticipated, but it did seem to trim the sail and the boat out...

I know someone else has noticed this...


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:23 pm 
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Location: Oceanside, California
There is no doubt that the Wave sail performance could be better. Just have to add all the stuff we took off to to make the boat more simple and fun to sail.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 9:57 am
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Location: Clear Lake Iowa
MUST BUILD HIGH PERF RACING WAVE MACHINE!!! :x


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Location: Oceanside, California
Alum castings... EPO carbon Blades... Mast rotation control / stops... Boom... 6:1 downhaul... uhhh that is a 16. :)

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:19 pm 
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Location: Clear Lake Iowa
Just the blades, a bitchin' sail and the mast rotator will be fine. Maybe a little place to keep a cold 6......


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:11 pm 
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Posts: 181
mmiller wrote:
There is no doubt that the Wave sail performance could be better. Just have to add all the stuff we took off to to make the boat more simple and fun to sail.


If you would allow the 5-hole clew plate from a Hobie 16 jib, the stock Wave sail would be a lot more versatile.

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:04 pm 
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Quote:
MUST BUILD HIGH PERF RACING WAVE MACHINE!!! :x

Oh, dude! Just trying to save my Bernoulli. Dang!

Don't want no shiny rudders...

Quote:
If you would allow the 5-hole clew plate from a Hobie 16 jib, the stock Wave sail would be a lot more versatile.

Now, Mugrace, I know from talking with my cousin Reggie that you are da bomb of Wave sailors, but you can't just drop a quarter in the jukebox and not offer some kind of explanation for why you are playing this clew plate tune...

No one answered my query about mast rotation either...


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:20 am 
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Quote:
If you would allow the 5-hole clew plate from a Hobie 16 jib, the stock Wave sail would be a lot more versatile.


Quote:
Now, Mugrace, I know from talking with my cousin Reggie that you are da bomb of Wave sailors, but you can't just drop a quarter in the jukebox and not offer some kind of explanation for why you are playing this clew plate tune...

No one answered my query about mast rotation either...


OK...at the beginning of this thread there was talk about getting the telltales to flow in unison. It really doesn't have much to do with the mast rotation.

However, with a clewplate that has several holes, rather than just one fixed grommet, you can alter leech tension and get them all flowing properly. This makes up for slight differences in the cut and aging of the sail.

The H16 jibplate is already in the inventory.

I don't see any need to control mast rotation. It just goes where it wants to be. That's pretty simple.

If I knew how to post a picture, I could show you that my telltales stream perfectly most of the time. Moving the hook from one hole to the next is all it takes.

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:06 pm 
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Location: Clear Lake Iowa
I have seen the other sails with the clew that Jack is speaking of and it makes sense. Also, I know a cheater-boy that has been trying to control the rotation, and he swears that the sail shapes better and he said on the old boat of his, he could out point and speed the new boats with some redneck engineering of his mast. Just sayin'.
But the point of the boat is to be simple, so I am saving Miller the trouble of saying it for the millionth time.
I wonder if adding the clew is against class rules? I"ll have to check.


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:03 pm 
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xanderwess wrote:
I have seen the other sails with the clew that Jack is speaking of and it makes sense.

I wonder if adding the clew is against class rules? I"ll have to check.


This is the only rule that comes close.

Under the Hobie Cat General Rules:

12.7 Any grommet on a Hobie sail may be replaced
as long as it is with an equal size or larger
grommet located within 3 in. (7.6 cm) of the
original location.

So... it looks to me like you could have several extra grommets within 3" of the existing grommet, but why not just allow the standard H16 jib plate?

That should alieviate the problem of slightly different sail cuts and normal stretching that we all know occurs.

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:58 pm
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Location: Indianapolis, IN
So, are you saying that as the sail stretches with age, you should move the hook closer to the mast? Or you should start nearer with a new sail and move out with age?

I'm trying to understand what changes as the attachment point varies, and how the sail shape is affected, going one way or the other by a few inches.

Then, what would be the affect as the main is eased? With no traveller, it seems like the sail shape always goes to pot (literally) as the sail lifts and gets loose on a reach.

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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:23 pm 
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Can you interpret that as not being able to use the jib plate in place of a single grommett? If it's angled, then all the holes are within 3" of the original (I think)


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Quote:
OK...at the beginning of this thread there was talk about getting the telltales to flow in unison. It really doesn't have much to do with the mast rotation.

Actually, telltales weren't main issue. Sail shape was. If you are watching the telltales, stressing over them flying in unison, and suddenly the mast over-rotates, you can forget telltales at that moment.

Although I am listening to your point about the leech.

For me, in the priority of things, over-rotation suddenly making a flatter sail slows things down more -- at some moments.

When I corrected the over-rotation, the telltales still flowed wrong; but the sail did look great and boat leveled out and the lift got much nicer.
Quote:
he said on the old boat of his, he could out point and speed the new boats

Not out to whoop that competition. Just trying to keep my Bernoulli. Some people like to fly a hull best. I like those moments when the wind lifts the boat along the water.

Why don't you guys have like a pirate's regatta or something? Instead of arguing about the legal or non-legal rigging, everyone could rig the way they want AND arm themselves! During the race, you could shoot down or off rigging of other boats. Slash sails with swords, etc, etc. Sinkers are losers. heh heh


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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:10 am 
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Location: Saint John, NB Canada sailing on Washademoak Lake
JJ wrote:
Why don't you guys have like a pirate's regatta or something? Instead of arguing about the legal or non-legal rigging, everyone could rig the way they want AND arm themselves! During the race, you could shoot down or off rigging of other boats. Slash sails with swords, etc, etc. Sinkers are losers. heh heh


I've been saying the same thing about the Olympics, all enhancements allowed.

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Marc...
1978 Hobie 16 Keoke, sail# 36 84
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 Post subject: Re: Mast rotation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:14 am 
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Posts: 181
xanderwess wrote:
Can you interpret that as not being able to use the jib plate in place of a single grommett? If it's angled, then all the holes are within 3" of the original (I think)


Chris,

I'm not sure that a clew plate is really a "grommet". That would be up to someone like Matt Bounds to offer an opinion on. I think it would be better just to allow it like they did on the 16 when it became apparent that there was a simple solution to jib sheet angle.

The Wave sail is very similar to the 16 jib. All you are doing is changing the sheeting angle to put more tension on either the foot or leech as appropriate.

I still don't see a need for mast rotation control.

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Jack Woehrle
Wave #100
H20 #287 "Tallahassee Lassie" (down in FLA)


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