Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:08 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 112 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:30 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 7:21 pm
Posts: 878
Location: Thunder Bay,On
So are we still pursuing this or has the notion fizzled out?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:08 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:55 am
Posts: 356
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
From the first page of the thread.

xanderwess wrote:
Rule change for US has to start here, so send me a letter, with pics if you can, and I'll get a group of people together to research it and give it the go or no then we'll (as a group) submit it to the Rules Committee. I would prefer the HCA-NA act as a unit with rules changes.
Jeremy Leonard is ALWAYS on this committee and he picks a few other interested parties then writes a report. Its awesome.
Look forward to seeing it.
cw


If you have allready done this, then I guess it is out of your hands.

_________________
1992 Hobie Cat 18 #16943
Hobie Fleet 198, Rapid City, SD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:41 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 9:57 am
Posts: 1588
Location: Clear Lake Iowa
Tommy is right: But I have not gotten anything on this. I would suggest that Bobby Edmonds and Madge get together on this too. Once I have the beforementioned stuff, I'll nicely ask Jeremy (THE go-to-guy with equipment rules) and he'll get a group lined up to review, debate, discuss and direct.
cw


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:17 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 7:21 pm
Posts: 878
Location: Thunder Bay,On
You want a picture of a Carbon fiber tiller?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:23 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 9:57 am
Posts: 1588
Location: Clear Lake Iowa
Yes, and all the facts about it. Pros and cons from you're perspective. That's why Bob Edmonds can help you with this. If you need his contact info let me know otherwise BING Arriba and get him that way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:25 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:46 pm
Posts: 1468
Location: Santa Cruz
Here are the carbon tillers that I sell to the 'A' Class guys, and it dawned on me that they ALREADY ARE covered with heat shrink. In fact, after setting them down and coming back to take photos, I couldn't tell the difference until I picked them up.

EDIT: These tillers are no longer available, and they were not built by who I thought built them. Woops.

They have the same exact end fittings, the same tube section diameter, and are visually and conductivily (according to this rudimentary test) exactly the same.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Control:
Image

_________________
Sail Revolution
Join us on our new FB Page!


Last edited by Sail Revolution on Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:56 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2410
Location: Jersey Shore
Quote:
They have the same exact end fittings, the same tube section diameter, and are visually and conductivily (according to this rudimentary test) exactly the same.


A couple mils of heat shrink isn't going to do squat as far as electrically insulating the stick if you run substantial current through it. Plus you have to consider that the outer coating of the stick (heat shrink, epoxy, etc) could be damaged.

I would be much more interested to see a test where you took a 1" long section of each tube and tested the conductivity along the length of the section by probing across the cut edges of the sample.

I really think you're going to have a hard time proving that carbon fiber sticks (or anything made using carbon) is non-conductive. Which brings us back to the question - why do the sticks have to be non-conductive in the first place? Eliminate or revise general rule 11.1 and the problem is solved. Perhaps require conductive tiller extensions to have a warning label in the same way that masts do.

sm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:09 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:46 pm
Posts: 1468
Location: Santa Cruz
This is exactly why I stated the test as 'rudimentary', your points are valid to the argument.

What is conductive? I agree with you that it doesn't really matter.

_________________
Sail Revolution
Join us on our new FB Page!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:15 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 9:59 am
Posts: 280
Location: Mill Creek, WA
Even the "non-conductive" sticks can become more conductive, or much less of an insulator, when dirty and/or covered in salt and grime.

Testing the carbon sticks from the inside is not really applicable since that's not where you'd be handling it in normal use.

Come to think of it we should have a warning label that tells us not to sail in winds over 5 knots due to increased risk of capsize. :roll:

_________________
2003 Tiger - Don Atchley


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:33 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2410
Location: Jersey Shore
OLD SCHOOL 18 wrote:
Testing the carbon sticks from the inside is not really applicable since that's not where you'd be handling it in normal use.

I disagree. The rule states that the tiller extension is to be non-conductive, not just that the outer surface is to be non-conductive. If instead of carbon fiber, the stick was made of a copper rod coated with a thin heat shrink, would you still have the same opinion?

Quote:
Come to think of it we should have a warning label that tells us not to sail in winds over 5 knots due to increased risk of capsize.

The new boats more or less do. They come with a big warning label stuck to the front crossbar that warns about all kinds of sailing risks, including capsize.

sm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:50 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 9:59 am
Posts: 280
Location: Mill Creek, WA
srm wrote:
I disagree. The rule states that the tiller extension is to be non-conductive, not just that the outer surface is to be non-conductive. If instead of carbon fiber, the stick was made of a copper rod coated with a thin heat shrink, would you still have the same opinion?
sm


Just for kicks... (and it's winter)

The rules don't clearly define how to measure "non-conductive". Which is part of the problem. Therefore depending on your desire to have a carbon extension or not, it will be very arguable. It could be said that the rules state that the tiller extension is to be non-conductive, therefore if I encase a copper rod in plastic, then yes, it is now for all practical purposes "non-conductive".

But the copper rod is going to be much heavier that carbon fiber and therefore won't sell very well. :lol:

I'll tell you that I could sail with a gold tiller extension and not have any concerns with being electrocuted.

The mast, and many of the components you sit directly on while sailing are made of aluminum. Aluminum is more conductive than copper. Go sailing in an electrical storm and you're more likely to have fire bolts shoot up your arse, than to get your thumb blown off. :shock:

Seriously, you"re sitting on an aluminum crossbar, holding onto a stainless steel cable attached to a 33 ft. aluminum lighting rod. :oops:

And we're discussing the conductivity of a tiller extension?

The safety issue, and the cost issue both appear to be just a couple of red herrings.

In my opinion, the current verbiage appears to be a holdover from the past with no current bearing on performance to support its continued use.

Image

_________________
2003 Tiger - Don Atchley


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:32 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:10 am
Posts: 408
Location: Black Hills South Dakota
Very well said and I agree.

_________________
Bodhisatfa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:12 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:06 pm
Posts: 610
Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
.... and you guys wonder why I've given up on getting any changes/upgrades approved for the H18???

... it's properly called "RISK ACCESSMENT" ..... and most of the time it seems that the risks are not evaluated in a decending order .... and any risk, no matter how small is enough to scuttle any positive change no matter how huge the benefit.

Oh, by the way I have one of those "rubber" tiller connectors on my Laser .... and I have to replace it all the time ... usually at least once (or twice) a year .... and usually after it has broken during a race!!!! Give me a SS fitting w/ a clevis pin and a "Hotstick" extendable tiller stick... as they don't seem to break too often .... maybe the hotstick wears out every 3-4yrs .... and that is why I wouldn't use a universal rubber tiller connector. But it should be the skipper's/owner's choice either way .....

I think the reason for the "heat shrink" is not for insulation ... but to help protect against UV damage and prevent the "splintering" of the tiller stick's fibers, with the resulting potentionally painful injury to one's hands during use. (Note: please reference my previous posts about covering my hotsticks w/ 1/8" neoprene ... it also helps prevents damage to the rudder blades when tacking/jybing from the tiller stick.)

And , yes I'm LOLing since the H16 class is having trouble w/ a simple rules issue .... I reference my posts about modifying the H18 Trap system ... and the argument, "it may get tangled underfoot" ....

Ya .... right .....

_________________
HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:50 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 7:21 pm
Posts: 878
Location: Thunder Bay,On
You are absolutly right on that Harry,very hard to get change.It is Ice boating season now so I am passing the torch if someone else wants to take up the cause.There is some good allies out there,(Bob Edmounds,Greg Thomas,Pat Porter...)There is also a minority of advocates against it.Some times minority rules in the Hobie world.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:52 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 9:57 am
Posts: 1588
Location: Clear Lake Iowa
Quitter.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 112 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group