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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:35 pm 
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I will miss the "geek factor" of the current design but sure dont want to get stuck. I trust that a lot of careful consideration was made prior to intitiating a complete redesign. Seems like there should be an easier way to make the twist and go a little tougher without getting out a new drawing board.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:22 pm 
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Keith, I think the time to de-power is when the boat doesn't want to go where the rudder is asking it to go. When that's happening, even if you force the issue, it's not going to make the boat go any faster and it puts tremendous stress on the rudder. It's like driving with one foot on the brake and the other on the accelerator.

The tendency of the boat to turn to windward is not due to a fault in the rudder, but due largely to it being cat-rigged (no foresail), so that all the wind force is on the rear of the boat, like a weather-vane.

There have been two real issues with the twist & stow rudder:

The first, is the tendency of the rudder to pop up under stress. That was a problem for some time with the AI, but was largely solved with the cleat-down rudder. In the case of the TI, it seems the forces were so much greater that even cleating the rudder down wouldn't hold it. Hence the new design.

The other problem, so far confined to the AI, is the rudder pins breaking. I think the real problem here, is that the AI's transom is too flimsy. Otherwise the problem could be solved by using a stronger pin. Kayaking Bob's experience is telling here - he broke two transoms while trialling a stronger pin without even bumping into anything. The transom on the TI is presumably stronger. We have had several reports of rudder blades snapping and Stringy's experience of the housing cracking, but I have heard no reports of either the rudder pin or the transom breaking on a TI.

Hopefully, in applying the new rudder design to the AI, Hobie also beefed up it's transom.

My wish for the AI would be for a stronger transom, but keeping the twist and stow rudder mechanism.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:58 pm 
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All good points, Chris, but, when I have broken pins (3 in 3.5 yrs), I was NOT having trouble controlling the boat. The breaks were a complete surprise.

The "fear of breaking a pin" does not bother me on the water. I never worry about the rudder pin when I am sailing. But, when planning a trip, I have to decide if breaking a pin may be a serious risk (I have a fear of sharks, drowning, and hypothermia.) I have commented before on this forum that I simply want a reliable rudder/steering system. Not too much to ask when sailing offshore.

Chris, your own comment summed up the typical user's dilemma:
Quote:
I'm in two minds on that one NOHUHU.
On the one hand, my pin is over two years (and many miles) old, so it may be gradually fatiguing and ready to fail at any moment.
On the other hand, it looks as good as new and has proven itself. Should I swap it for an unproven pin that might snap after five minutes use, as Keith experienced?
I dunno...

These are the typical facts: your pin is 2 yrs old, has many miles on it, and has not broken. I placed a new pin in rudder housing and it broke in 3 minutes. That in itself says Hobie either cannot or does not control the quality of these pins.

The question of whether there is a "batch of bad pins" is not the issue. No one can tell you if a pin is good or bad--the user takes his/her chances. If AI pins are breaking for users, that is the issue.

Perhaps Hobie could have a standard rudder (I'll take the new one) and an accessory rudder (T-n-S) or vice versa--that would suit me--just give me a 100% reliable, robust rudder.

Keith

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:55 am 
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I, too, welcome a new rudder design for the TI.

Cindy and I enjoy long sails on our Tandem and have gotten gun shy after the rudder control lines snapped or jammed on several occasions. Try using an oar to steer by in strong winds and chop for ten miles or more, then come back and tell me the TI was shipped with a perfectly designed rudder.

For us, the new design can't come too soon.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:33 am 
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Thanks for the sneek peek Keith

... I've been studying the pictures and I only see a line (heavy black) holding the rudder in the up position, and that looks temporary as in for transportation or storage. What mechanism is used to lower it, lock it in place, and then raise it again ?

After being in Turks for a week and spending ALOT of time on both a Wave and a Getaway I became a BIG fan of the ease and simplicity of their rudders

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 Post subject: New Rudder-Pin
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:27 pm 
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From Chekika's closeup photos, it appears that the up-down lines go through the
head of the rudder pin. I hope that this means that Hobie is convinced that the new much larger rudder pin will not break under most circumstances.
Because if the new rudder pin were to break, I really don't want to have to replace the pin at the same time as having to rerun the lines through the top of the pin and then into the rudder. It was bad enough to have to replace the TI pin without having to re-rig lines while offshore.


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 Post subject: Re: New Rudder-Pin
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:50 pm 
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TIDALWAVE wrote:
It was bad enough to have to replace the TI pin without having to re-rig lines while offshore.
TIDALWAVE, was that a typo or have you had a pin break on a TI (as opposed to an AI)?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:09 pm 
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Chekika,

I was in the race with my Tandem and the new rudder. I made the first checkpoint in 19 hours. I had to drop out because it is not a good idea leaving the beach with a cold. My past kidney problems and a virus do not make a good combination.

As far as the rudder report: There is a noticable performance difference in the new rudder. It is much more responsive. I hit some high winds and heavy seas. The rudder did not let me down. Going into Placida I ran over some shallows. The rudder did kick up.

After installing the rudder make sure that it is hooked up correctly. I left the beach steering backward until Anna Maria. Hobie uses a slip knot that is very easy to unhook. The change was very quick.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:25 pm 
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Sorry, I mis-typed TI for AI (I own both kayaks)...
From the title of this thread and what I have been told, I believe that Hobie is planning on changing both the AI and TI rudder systems. I have not had my TI rudder pin break. I have had more than a couple of AI pins break. The present TI rudder has a more robust pin system than the AI. When my AI pins break, it has been a pain but installing a new pin is usually straight forward, no lines to re-feed.
The new rudder system pin looks like it is double the diameter of the old pin.
I am not sure which I would prefer...a much more robust pin which causes the rudder blade to shear off first, or replace a rudder pin which has to have the up-down lines re-inserted through it while offshore.
It will be interesting to see what happens when the new rudder hits something.
I will definitely replace the TI rudder, I consistently lost rudder control as the old rudder popped out of its clip...and the elastic strap 'fix' was a nuisance when coming into shallow water.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:04 pm 
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TDW, no big deal - take a closer look.

It appears the top of the new pin is slotted vertically (to allow the lines to run over it) rather than slotted horizontally like the current TI pins. If so, it's merely a guide. (If it's not slotted, it soon will be!)

Replacing a pin should be a snap, and the up/down operation should be very smooth now, with those straight pull lines. Rudder response should be strong and even too.

I'm waiting for a few more closeups from our gifted Hobie paparazzi.

WikiLeaks has nothing on you Keith!! 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:30 am 
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Chekika wrote:
Depower! Depower! When to depower?

I think it is a tough call. Someone's trash is another person's treasure.

Someone may depower at 12 knots, others at 18 knots, still others never. Everyone wants to sail as fast as possible on a particular boat--that is the fun of it for most people, and it may be in challenging conditions.

I think a boat ought to handle conditions which make sailing fun without losing steering. If you (Hobie) have to design a new rudder and rudder housing, and re-enforce the transom, then that should be done. If that adds a hundred bucks to the price, I would pay it for peace of mind (and to go wherever I want.) It is rare for other parts of the boat to break. Let Hobie fix the weak link.

I applaud Hobie for coming up with a design to solve the rudder/steering problem. Let's call it a robust, functional design.

Keith



+1

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:34 am 
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Maybe I missed it in the thread.

In the pictures, the control lines do not look like Spectra line? Are the control lines also changing to a different type of line?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:55 am 
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I too am interested to see if Hobie has begun to address the common issue in the TIs with severe chafing of the rudder control/steering Spectra lines. Two thin Spectra lines run through small holes in the stern of the mail hull. If replaced with thicker and stronger line, then Hobie might need to drill bigger holes in the back of the hull. But with bigger holes in the hull, the hull will flood with water even faster from any splashes and waves coming from the stern.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:40 am 
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The New Rudder comes with ~2' of 100 lb SPECTRA. It is slightly thicker than the old system. It also comes with new plastic tubes and seals.

To install the rudder they cut the steering and control lines at the stern. Remove the old plastic tubes. Install the new tubes.

They use a paraglider knot to join the old and new lines. It is very simple: A overhand loop is made in the old lines. The new line gets a figure eight knot. The old line loop is folded over and slid down over the figure eight knot. Line tension keeps the knot from coming apart.

The great new change is that all the adjustments are made at the rudder. You center the rudder and control handles. Take up the slack. Tighen the screws. Tie off excess line above the rudder.

When my initial setup was backward on the steering it took me 5 minutes to switch the lines.

I see a lot of questions about transporting the boat with the rudder up:
You snap the control lines off the rudder pin. Pull the pin and lay the rudder on the stern deck flat. There is enough line to do this...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:30 am 
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Paul,

Is Hobie shipping out the new rudders?

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