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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:46 am 
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Location: Palm City, Florida
Slaughter,

You poor salt deprived soul, me thinks this "thread" is unraveling :shock: .

I don't know what 'Sealastic' is, but as far as the Tef Gel stuff I use, it is specifically made for the purpose we have been "attempting" to have a serious discussion about. It's even made in Australia, http://tefgel.com.au/ so that should make you guys "down under" quite happy. :wink:

There's no Loctite on the rivets, that would be silly. Where I have seen it used on my (Babe in the Woods 2011 TI) was on the screws, ie Harken cleats to the Crossbar, Paddle strap to the Aka, and places like that. What do you think about smearing a little silicon over the rivets to keep the salt from getting in?

By the way you may want to try tasting Loctite instead, it's sweeter. :P What time is your Margarita Party? If I leave now, I might just make it.

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Ezra Appel
Palm City, Florida
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:46 am 
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Slaughter,

You poor salt deprived soul, me thinks this "thread" is unraveling :shock: .

I don't know what 'Sealastic' is, but as far as the Tef Gel stuff I use, it is specifically made for the purpose we have been "attempting" to have a serious discussion about. It's even made in Australia, http://tefgel.com.au/ so that should make you guys "down under" quite happy. :wink:

There's no Loctite on the rivets, that would be silly. Where I have seen it used on my (Babe in the Woods 2011 TI) was on the screws, ie Harken cleats to the Crossbar, Paddle strap to the Aka, and places like that. What do you think about smearing a little silicon over the rivets to keep the salt from getting in?

By the way you may want to try tasting Loctite instead, it's sweeter. :P What time is your Margarita Party? If I leave now, I might just make it.

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Ezra Appel
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2014 Tandem Island


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:53 am 
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Sorry about the dbl post, I must have hit the submit key twice :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:30 pm 
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I'd never heard of Tef-Gel until now. Interesting and bloody expensive. I would want to be good. Silastic ( sorry I spelt it wrong ) is a silicon gel by Dow Corning. http://www.dowcorning.com/content/rubber/
Many different manufacturers out there, but they have many different products as well for many different applications, so my point was to choose the right product for the job not just the first one on the shelf at the hardware store. I'm only saying this because we found out the hard way on our project at work and payed the price.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:15 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
All the Rivets on the AKA's on my TI are loose, and some are falling out. As an Engineer and product designer I looked at the design and there is a problem with the design more so than galvanic corrosion. This is an incorrect application/use of rivets (a basic design/manufacturing problem that Hobie needs to address and fix). Yes there is a little galvanic corrosion going on as well but this is not the primary cause of the failure (I'm sure all the fresh water guys have the same problem). The primary cause is the pockets for the tubes are too loose, rivets only work when there is no mechanical movement possible prior to riveting, basically no rivet can take the continous stress of a moving joint (that's why airplane wings are overlapped, glued, and riveted). The best remedy in my opinion if the rivets have come loose, and the boat is out of warranty is to remove the old rivets clean the parts completely and when re-assembling coat both the pocket and the end of the AKA tube with RTV silicone adhesive something like GE silicone II would work well (available at any hardware store, in the painting department, it is usually used in bathrooms). The silicone when it dries will prevent the AKA from moving (the movement is killing the rivets). I would also coat the rivets and joints with silicone during assembly, which should also help with the corrosion. I wouldn't change the basic design, the rivets should work if they can remove the play in the joint by adding a glue operation to their assembly process.
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Bob, that is a terrific observation and helpful post. Thanks.

Keith

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:52 am 
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fusion,

Thanks for your inputs.

My rivet tool arrived in the mail this past week so I'm planning on performing some preventing maintenance. Silicone adhesive (i.e. 3M 5200) seems like a good idea to address the play and stress caused by the constant shock and vibration these joints have to endure. Will post up my experience...

c2y


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:13 am 
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Matt,

What does Hobie have to say about this problem?

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St. Johns, Florida
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:31 am 
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Dosjers:
I took the AKA's back to the dealer (my boat is still under warranty), and they are replacing the AKA's. The good news is (according to the dealer) all new current and replacement AKA's are glued and riveted (just like I independently described how it should have been done above). This just re-enforces the fact that Hobie and their dealer network (especially George at Economy Tackle in Sarasota, FL) is the most friendly proactive company I have ever encountered, it's a true joy for me owning Hobies and there really is something to the Hobie way of life. My TI was an early model (one of the first in this area, I have over 800 miles on it) and every problem I have had has been addressed promptly and the fixes/improvements have been incorporated into their manufacturing ( I have no affiliation or direct contact with Hobie Cat company, I just use their stuff). In my opinion the TI is the most versatile boat out there today, we use ours for Kayaking up rivers, island hopping down in the keys, scuba platform, fishing, and during crab season we look like the guys on deadliest catch hauling crab traps out in the gulf. All on $3 worth of gas over the last year (2 hp emergency gas motor always on board). This means using a combination pedals, paddles, sails we can go pretty much anywhere and do any adventure we can imagine without polluting the world. I will throw away the motor when I get my fuel cell/solar electric system completed. In comparison our old Sea Ray deck boat was very expensive to buy, operate, store, and maintain, and very limited were it could be used (10% of the waterways in our area vs 99% with the TI). All I can say is 'WOW' I had no idea what I was getting into back in 2007, jumping on board with the Hobie way of life, not even mentioning the fitness factors of a healthy lifestyle for a guy in his 60's, just getting out there having fun.
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:32 am 
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Not glued at this point, so not sure where the dealer got that idea. We are working on this though to determine the cause and a correct solution.

In my opinion, field fix should be disassembly, coat with 5200 in the casting and re-rivit.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Excellent post, Bob. I agree with you 100%. From my perspective, the TI is the most versatile boat ever created.

I too have one of the first TIs off the assembly line. We are celebrating its first birthday now. We sail the boat several times a week with my friends and family all over South FL. And earlier this year, we noticed all the rivets on the aka knuckle joints were loose. Hobie warranty sent my dealer a bag of new rivets. We'll see how they hold up.

We look forward to a stronger fix from Hobie on this issue. Congrats on the new akas you just received from Hobie. Please keep us updated with their progress. Hopefully, the rivets will hold and not become loose again within the next several months.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:51 pm 
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Matt:
I was just conveying what I was told by the dealer (don't want to get him in trouble), as long as my AKA's are fixed I'm happy. I percieve the loose rivets as a design flaw that needs to be addressed under warranty. Most of the posts on the subject were off the mark as to the root cause of the problem, and just replacing the rivets (or AKA bars) every 3-6 months isn't a solution (though coating the casting with 3M 5200 marine adhesive then re-riveting should do the trick). I just wanted to share my thoughts on the real cause of the issue (this is the stuff I do for a living) and get my AKA bars fixed properly. In the future I'll keep stuff like this to myself, I was only trying to help. Hobie consistantly stands behind their products, and I'm a big Hobie fan.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 8:20 am 
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Matt,
In my experience, 3-M 5200 can be some pretty strong and permanent stuff depending on how it's applied, ie. preparation (good clean joints), thickness of glue joint and exposure etc. Given the stress and movement involved with the aka connection to the knuckle, do you think that glueing with 3-M and riveting is better than just welding the joint together?

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Ezra Appel
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2014 Tandem Island


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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 5:14 pm 
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sun E sailor wrote:
Given the stress and movement involved with the aka connection to the knuckle, do you think that glueing with 3-M and riveting is better than just welding the joint together?


SunE,

I'm hoping that was the case since I picked up two chaulking tubes of the stuff. My thinking was that the extra shock absorbsion should help. Moreso, it provides a neutral barrier between metals. Despite the joint and aka bar being made of metal, there's still a chance for some electrolysis depending on the differences in composition.

The adhesion from the 3M 5200 combined with the mechanical hold from the rivets seems like a good hold. But I'm weary that it may be too permanent of a solution that it will make future preventive maintenance difficult.

Matt, are you thinking the same thing?

Thanks all for you inputs in this...

c2y


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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 1:59 pm 
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c2y,

You raise a good point and I agree with your concern. How effective would 5200 be in this situation given that the space between the knuckle joint and aka arm is fairly tight to begin with... I'm not sure? Removing it later if it didn't work would be difficult.

Has anyone actually tried doing this type of repair with any lasting success? Is welding not a better fix instead? Perhaps though, this joint needs to have some flex and if it were welded tight it would crack under a strain?

Id like to hear a more definitive repair procedure from Hobie if in fact they are recommending using 5200 for this purpose.

Welding vs 3-M 5200, or something else. :?: :?: :?:

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