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 Post subject: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:49 pm 
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Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:37 pm
Posts: 12
Bought a H 21 SE in pieces. Thinking about a few modifications as I put her back. Anyone put dagger boards in theirs? Or spinnaker pole with snuffer?


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 5:43 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:23 am
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Location: Lake Norman NC
Try the owners manual


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 5:23 pm 
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Location: Columbus, Indiana
I am pretty sure that saw a photo or video of a European Hobie 21SE with dagger boards like a Hobie 18 but more of a updated design.The deck looked factory made,very smooth and uniform with the rest of the deck.More than likely a better performance foil.
If your handy with fiberglass and gel coat good luck. :D

Post photos,Bill 404 212SE

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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:37 pm
Posts: 12
I am good with glass and she's coming along nicely. Think I got the daggerboard trunks figured out. May use boards from a nacra 60, may build my own. I'm gonna mold release the board, wrap it in a couple layers of matt, slide that sleeve off and into the centerboard trunk, glass it in top and bottom, expanding foam the remaining cavities.
Couldn't find specs for pole length, etc in the owners manual.
A little disappointed in Hobie staff, nobody wants to help me keep their boat on the water. Getting a "figure it out for yourself" attitude... so I will.


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 8893
Location: Oceanside, California
Quote:
Getting a "figure it out for yourself" attitude


What Hobie staff do you refer to? None of us here at Hobie USA have commented thus far. We could not help much with a custom job you are attempting anyway. We would recommend using the stock centerboards of course.

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Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:10 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:37 pm
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Exactly, several emails, no comments. You could help, your educated guesses should be better than mine. How much surface area do i need on high aspect ratio daggerboard for a 21, how far abaft the mast should i position the boards? Can't find specs for rigging a spinnaker pole. Raised racing mono hulls, new to cats.


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 8:41 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 4576
Location: Detroit, MI
gottagofast wrote:
You could help, your educated guesses should be better than mine.

And what happens when things don't turn out as Hobie "guesses" - you'll be here slagging them for not knowing anything about their product - that you're trying to customize.

You're asking for support - for a custom modification - on a boat that's been out of production for 15 years :?

gottagofast wrote:
How much surface area do i need on high aspect ratio daggerboard for a 21, how far abaft the mast should i position the boards?
That's a question more appropriate for a naval architect than the boat manufacturer. Go on http://www.boatdesign.net and ask the question there. You're more likely to get an answer.

gottagofast wrote:
Can't find specs for rigging a spinnaker pole. Raised racing monohulls, new to cats.
The original 21SE didn't have a spinnaker. Even so, pole/spinnaker setups have changed so much in 15 years that you'd want something more modern - like what's on a NACRA 20.

IMHO, you're asking for trouble to use Wildcat boards "scaled up" for the 21. Those boards have a very high aspect ratio - which means they are structurally tricky to build. Hobie Cat had problems with the first batch of Wildcat boards - they were breaking.

Unless you're not only good with glass, but good with engineering a carbon / glass composite structure - I'd stick with something wider. Like the existing centerboard system.


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:37 pm
Posts: 12
How do you know i'll rip hobie for my mods. Just looking for help, a starting point. Don't understand why my asking for help from the manufacturer of boat (current production or no) is a big deal. If anyone knows the boat, it should be them. I've never even sailed one.
You telling me boat manufacturers don't have/use naval architects, formulas, etc?
Why stick with centerboards when every modern racing cat has high aspect ratio daggers?
I'm trying to improve boat performance, i may fail, but that won't stop me from trying. Why is everyone so unwilling to help? I'm confident in my ability to do the mods. Asking for data, information, nay sayers, unless they have sound evidence, can you know what. I will use all the information i get to make MY decision.
Quote:
IMHO, you're asking for trouble to use Wildcat boards "scaled up" for the 21. Those boards have a very high aspect ratio - which means they are structurally tricky to build.

I thought aspect ratio was shape, not structure.
Quote:
Hobie Cat had problems with the first batch of Wildcat boards - they were breaking.

Maybe they should hire me!
What is IMHO?


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 8893
Location: Oceanside, California
The support staff that reviews forums are not engineers. We are sailors with multi decades worth of Hobie sailing experience. We can not burden the engineers with this sort of distraction... they are extremely busy at what they do. Sorry, just reality.

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Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 8893
Location: Oceanside, California
gottagofast wrote:
What is IMHO?


"In my humble opinion"

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:37 pm
Posts: 12
Why I asked for guess, didn't want to bother Hobie too much. More interested in what your real world experiences are, than what the engineers say anyway. Do you (Matt) think the 21 se performance could be improved with daggers? I am good with glass, so the work doesn't scare me.


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 4576
Location: Detroit, MI
gottagofast wrote:
How do you know i'll rip hobie for my mods. Just looking for help, a starting point. Don't understand why my asking for help from the manufacturer of boat (current production or no) is a big deal. If anyone knows the boat, it should be them.
Call it intuition - you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder, complaining that you don't get advice on your proposed custom modification of a 20 year old boat.

gottagofast wrote:
I've never even sailed one.
I never would have guessed.

gottagofast wrote:
You telling me boat manufacturers don't have/use naval architects, formulas, etc?
Yep. Most Hobies were shaped by eye and there are minimal technical drawings. Including the 21.

gottagofast wrote:
Why stick with centerboards when every modern racing cat has high aspect ratio daggers?
Because . . . that's the way the boat was built?

gottagofast wrote:
I thought aspect ratio was shape, not structure.
Aspect ratio determines thickness. Thickness determines bending strength. Long, skinny boards (like the Wildcat's) need to be very, very strong - because they are long and skinny. They are engineered carbon fiber structures.

gottagofast wrote:
I'm trying to improve boat performance, i may fail, but that won't stop me from trying. Why is everyone so unwilling to help? I'm confident in my ability to do the mods. Asking for data, information, nay sayers, unless they have sound evidence, can you know what. I will use all the information i get to make MY decision.
You can do whatever you want, spend as much money as you want, but I'm going to tell you (and I am a naval architect) that you're throwing your money away. Just sail the boat the way it is. It's unlikely you would see any significant performance gains, and you're more likely to turn the boat into an unbalanced, tweaky, hard-to-find-the-groove-upwind kind of boat.

Not to mention, you'll have all the drawbacks of long, skinny boards - like them being half-up or more (with a razor edge pointed at you) downwind, hitting bottom, and self-ejecting when you capsize (better make it so they float!).


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:37 pm
Posts: 12
MBounds, you don't even know me, but you're making a lot of assumptions about me.
Quote:
Most Hobies were shaped by eye and there are minimal technical drawings. Including the 21.

Quote:
you're more likely to turn the boat into an unbalanced, tweaky, hard-to-find-the-groove-upwind kind of boat.

So you say Hobie can free shape the whole boat, but I can't do the same on a modification to same boat?
I made one comment saying i was "a little disappointed in Hobie." I deal with boat manufacturers often, and hobie so far has not been helpful. I am simply looking for advice from the guys who build and sail these boats. They should be the authority, love their boats, have an interest in seeing them live on. Wouldn't that be the first place you turned to also?
I'm looking for solid intel, not junk like this:
Quote:
Not to mention, you'll have all the drawbacks of long, skinny boards - like them being half-up or more (with a razor edge pointed at you) downwind, hitting bottom, and self-ejecting when you capsize (better make it so they float!).

Who do you work for as a naval architect, so i can avoid your products.


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 4576
Location: Detroit, MI
gottagofast wrote:
So you say Hobie can free shape the whole boat, but I can't do the same on a modification to same boat?
I don't care who you are, you don't have the shaping skills and seat-of-the-pants-design savvy of Phil Edwards. If you did, you wouldn't be here.

gottagofast wrote:
I made one comment saying i was "a little disappointed in Hobie." I deal with boat manufacturers often, and hobie so far has not been helpful. I am simply looking for advice from the guys who build and sail these boats. They should be the authority, love their boats, have an interest in seeing them live on.
As so they should be your free consultants?

gottagofast wrote:
I'm looking for solid intel, not junk like this:
Quote:
Not to mention, you'll have all the drawbacks of long, skinny boards - like them being half-up or more (with a razor edge pointed at you) downwind, hitting bottom, and self-ejecting when you capsize (better make it so they float!).
That comes from first hand knowledge of owning and racing a Tiger for 4 years. Wildcat style boards are worse (sharper). I don't know how much better intel you can get.

Nobody is stopping you from doing your project. Just don't expect people to want to be your consultant - for free - on a 20 year old boat.


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 Post subject: Re: H21SE dagger boards?
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 1:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:37 pm
Posts: 12
Sorry.


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