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 Post subject: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:41 am 
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I've searched around and see that some folks have come up with spinnakers for the Adventure Islands. Is anyone making a kit yet for sale?

Hobie, would you be willing to take this on? You could do a much better job than me. I think you'd find a lot of interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:52 am 
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Hobie, would you be willing to take this on?


Not something I think is going to be easily workable on the AI / TI. Mostly due to the furling mast, but due to excessive loads on the rig. We have also had problems with a jib system. It can damage the rig, hull or components.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:59 pm 
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Location: Calga NSW, Australia
The Pacific Action sail may be the best existing approximation to a spinnaker for the AI/TI. It attaches to the hull only and has been used on many different kayaks without causing problems of excessive stress as far as I know. Skymax has one: viewtopic.php?f=70&t=19639&start=0. Perhaps he might comment now that he has had it for a while.

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Last edited by chrisj on Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1313
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
CCW:
As Matt says, it's just not as simple as it appears.

I have both a jib and a spinnaker on my Tandem Island. To be honest I use the jib maybe 60% of the time, but only use the spinnaker once in a great while. It's pretty easy on the AI/TI to get better downwind performance by tieing a line to the AMA and pulling the sail out for downwind (I think it's called a barbar hauler). If you also have a jib you can tie that out to the opposite side, I think I have heard people call this a batwing setup.
There are many that have mounted just a standard Hobie kayak sail onto both AI's and TI's. That sail is only around 20 sq ft and it shouldn't get you into too much trouble (just my opinion), I would just make sure you can furl the jib and the mainsail easily and quickly for safety sake.
At least in my case the jib gives me a little more speed in low wind conditions, helps the boat upwind, I can sail closer to the wind with the jib. And when going downwind rigging as a batwing it helps downwind performance, so I seldom launch the spinnaker ( mine is actually a gennaker (assymetric spinnaker 135 sq ft)).

A couple words of caution are in order here if you are planning to try it. The mast mount is braced very well to withstand side to side force (with the metal triangle braces), but there is really nothing in the design to re-enforce forward pull (as would occur from a spinnaker or batwing). Without having the mast sufficiently stayed in the front, back and sides at the top, you could (will) over stress the stock mast mount system (will for sure break something). Also the lifting cleat on the bow is not designed to mount a sail, you will likely pull it off if you just clip a jib to it. Also the bow on the TI is fairly weak because of the big cargo hatch, if you do mount a jib, that front hatch will leak water.

Another factor to consider in the design is the flotation ability of the AMA's and distance from the centerline of the main hull to the AMA's. The current design is sufficient to prevent the boat with the standard mainsail from tipping up to around 15 mph winds. At that point the mast is designed to flex to help spill some of the excess wind. Even with that most of us have to reef the mainsail in higher winds with just the mainsail. Adding stays to the mast (in order to add a spinnaker and jib), doesn't allow the mast to flex and spill wind as designed, and also the additional side force from extra sails will tip the boat over in higher winds, or worse yet break the mast holder.

Everything is a comprimise with any boat, I have mine rigged to work well in low wind conditions (typical where I live 5-8 mph year round) with 265 sq ft of sail area. But this is at the cost of higher wind performance. I basically don't take the boat out in anything over 15 mph winds, and I don't raise the larger sails in much over 10-12 mph winds (there really is no need since the main sail alone provides more power than the boat can possibly use). Most people on the forum are just beginning to have fun in 12 mph wind and higher, I wish we had winds like that here where I live (Gulf coast Florida), I wouldn't have felt the need to add more sail area if we did.
Always keep in mind that these boats are displacement type hulls, so once you get up to around 8 mph speed, the power required to drive the boat faster goes up exponetially, in other words to drive a TI at lets say 20 mph (with a motor or sails) it would require I would guess 50 hp plus of driving force. The boat is simply not designed to do this.
If you want to go fast get a Hobie cat, we hear of many people achiving 20 mph plus on that type of boat (it's designed for it), the AI/TI simply is not designed to do that. These are all just my opinions, and experience on my own TI. I'm just a TI user with no affilation with Hobie Cat Co. BTW I really love my TI, I consider it to be the best design out there today (in this class/type of boat).

I'm advising to not try adding additional huge sails unless you really know what you are doing, and are willing to risk/bypass the designed in safety of the boat " all at your own risk".
And think about this, Hobie has had the jib designed for quite a while now, but never released. I'm sure there is a very good reason for that. Once they get a design they are comfortable with, that is safe for the boat and it's occupants, it will be released. When that day comes, I have a feeling every TI owner will order it.
Good luck and have fun
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Wow! Thanks for the thought and time put into the responses. I have a lot to consider if I try to come up with a system. I'd like to be able to add some more sail for the local lake where winds are not the best, but be able to go with the standard rig on the ocean. I'll look into the Pacification sail some more. It looks like it may be a good solution for me. I was also thinking about the Wind Paddle sail.


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:57 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:06 am
Posts: 360
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
That was a great response. After looking at fusioneng's nice jib design, and at what I would have to do to my TI to strengthen it for additional sail loads, I've decided to wait and let the Hobie guys work out what they are comfortable with. The temptation is there to add some sail, but as fusioneng points out in different words, I am remembering that this is, after all, a sailing kayak. It is a great sailing kayak, but a sailing kayak it is.

We have a different problem than the Florida gulf coast, we have a surplus of wind here most of the time. We consider 15 knots a nice leisurely sailing day and when the wind is below 10 knots we don't even take the TI out anymore. Fortunately, those light wind days are rare here on islands in the Trade Winds.

Adding additional sails and their inherent stresses is like trying to turn a nice glider into a aerobatic airplane. you'll likely rip the wings off. I also found that just using a telescoping canoe paddle as a whisker pole to hold the TI mainsail out downwind instantly added some oomph to our TI.
I was intending to come up with a barbour haul, but this worked out much simpler and no mods to the boat.

For added downwind performance, I am thinking of picking up a small traction kite and adding a couple of pulleys to the front crossbar to fly it from. some issues with leading the steering lines and launching the kite, but the boat is so stable I think it can be worked out. I think this could be a fun and safe way to pick up some horsepower without stressing attachment points on the boat. Would add some lift, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:37 pm
Posts: 543
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
Spinnakers are usually considered as a big baggy sail, who says?

A 'real' spinnaker needs a pole to strech out the fabric for maximum effect. (Or consider an offset cut without the pole and call it a Gennaker). Keep in mind that a real spinnaker pole also needs a down haul and up haul line and the cam cleats to lock them up and down. This is a tough act on a 'minimalist' vessel that simply has little room for all the extra gear.

(btw: fusioneng, how you got it all to work together is amazing. (Round of applause please!) Well done m8 8)

Needless to say a 'standard' spinnaker just isn't practical for most unless you really intend to split the Atom.

However, if we define what a down wind sail really is is to offer the maximum amount of sailcloth to speed up the downwind process. In that regards.

1) A strong Golf Umbrella. It will work as long as you have a free hand to hang onto it. Dousing it is a piece of cake - just close it. In strong winds just use a personal sized well built umbrella. The wife may also appreciate the gentleman who holds up the umbrella for her in a rainstorm to prevent mascara loss...

2) Those trick twisty thingies that are used for all sorts of stuff like canopies, single lined kites and even this will work quite well:

http://www.bicsportkayaks.com/products/ ... l,908.html

There are other variations on this same theme most are built for downwind Kayak sailing (google it or check out Top Kayaker's website). The big bonus is these types of rigs are independent of the mast's furling ability. Some or most will require rigging of some kind though to attach them to the deck, maybe just a few pad eyes (inchworms).

3) Kites: Yah not the little bitty types that you may have flown as a kid. Kites come in all sorts of shapes and sizes from a small traction trainer kite 2 to 3.5 meters up to a Monster 20 Meter kite that can probaly launch you into sub orbit...it's the wind failure in space that can ruin your day. :lol:

4) What I've used for the last 10 years on anything from Inflatable kayaks to double sit insides:

http://www.spiritsails.com/products-page/?category=2

These sails are a very clever design made out of shock chord connected carbon fiber rods that require no rigging except a solidly mounted Scotty mount. These V shaped flat sails are designed to spill wind if over powered without intervention. (and yes they do work, I got a 12' Innova 'Sunny' inflatable up on a plane in 20 knot winds with 2 ppl and a 50 lb Springer Spaniel aboard).
Btw: The company was for sale 5 years ago. I almost bought it, yet at the time I couldn't get the facts on how many people would actually have bought the product and I let if pass. No worries, after all these years the product still works as advertised.

That is what I'm trying to mount right now on the rear Akas of my AI (if I can get a 1.5" RAM rail mount to connect with the Scotty Mount.

Any advice would be appreciated.

(Oh yah I forgot the oldest one still in existence....A bed sheet, 2 paddles, and some twine...now that would be Old School, and downright redonkulous)

Best Regards
Trinomite
(If there is a breeze up the butt, you're not downwind sailing, hehehe)

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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:37 pm
Posts: 543
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
Hey Gringo

You said: "For added downwind performance, I am thinking of picking up a small traction kite and adding a couple of pulleys to the front crossbar to fly it from."

May I suggest you get a 2 to 3 meter trainer kite and work out the logistics. Your idea has been used by numerous ppl, yet a 'small' kite with a single line will maybe add a knot or 2. I assume you are looking for more performance.

Firstly, you need to launch the kite. As most traction kites (Parafoils), even small ones, are not waterproof, you would have to launch it from land and then jump aboard. a real inflatable water kite comes in the min 5 meter range (a potentially very powerful kite), that you may want to loose your mast and sail to control...

Putting it through pulleys at that point would be almost impossible unless you use 2 snatch blocks (open sided pulleys) or fittings on the crossbar that allows 2 hooks to be used in case you need to pull in the rig without having it pulled under your boat. May I suggest a 2 line kite with a 3rd line depower system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3nXu93y ... re=related

This product is the only small trainer kite that can relaunch from the water.

I added this post not in any way as a critique, just a hope to save you a lot of frustration and a few bucks.

Best Regards, Gringo
Trinomite

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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Marietta Ga.
Matt, if someone wanted to attach something like halyards to the amas are there any backing plates behind the stainless steel attachment point or handle ? which would be the strongest attachment point?

Louis DeLuca

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Marietta Ga.


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:01 am 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
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Location: Oceanside, California
There are no backing plates or fittings that I can recommend attachment of something other than what we have designed.

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Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Marietta Ga.
Matt,
not trying to be cute, but what did hobie design the attachment points on the Ama to handle? It would be helpful to know what the designers intended.

Louis :D

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Marietta Ga.


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:15 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1313
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Louis:
If your serious about adding a jib and spinnaker to your TI, if you go to the forum subject The ultimate Tandem Island (hydrofoils,spinnaker,jib,etc)
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=33720

It goes into great detail explaining my design and full details on how I made everything, and alot of details about the stresses encountered. I have well over 1000 sailing miles on my TI now, with no difficulties. Of course you need to be careful, for example if you try to put up 265 sq ft of sail in 20 knot winds something will break (for sure), and the boat will likely capsize.
I rigged the boat specifically to sail in the typical very low wind conditions (5-8 mph) around the gulf coast the extra sail area makes life a little easier. If you want to go fast fast get an H16 or H18. I set out to rig the most versatile boat to suit the conditions I typically like to sail in. (3-15 mph winds). When wind gets higher so do the waves, and it is no longer fun for me fighting large waves so I stay home. A good day of sailing for me is covering 30-40 miles getting to a destination and back safely. We are also avid scuba divers and spend about half of our time around Sarasota and the other half down in Key West (where we like to dive and Island hop).
We were down in Key West over the last week and watched the superboat races, pretty sad since around 4 people died and there were at least 6 superboat wrecks (we are friends with some of the racers and followed the procession this morning from Key West to Miami with a police escort (pretty sad). I didn't dare take my TI out at all since the winds were 30 mph plus at times and the seas were up to 6 ft. Why anyone would want to drive in that at 200 mph is beyond me. The plan was to watch the races from offshore from our TI but that didn't happen we stayed safely on shore. I used to design and build race boats a long time ago, Sarasota is supposedly the capital of superboats (the Sarasota races are on July 4th every year, fun time (as long as nobody dies).

I think you will be on your own adding more sails to the TI, I just don't see Hobie making any additions to the basic design for liability reasons. Keep in mind if you make these kinds of mods Hobie isn't obligated to honor their warranty. Also keep in mind the AI/TI is the probably the most popular boat on the market today as well as the most versatile boat anywhere just as it is. If you look at the competition like the WETA (3x the price) or the Windrider 17 (2x the price), I would much rather own my TI (which I can car top). Both of those boats are faster than the TI (only a little faster than mine with all my extra's). I for one refuse to trade in my Mirage drives for anything (they open up a whole new world to sailing). Because of the Mirage drives I know of no other boat that can sail almost directly upwind in very low winds.

I have no affiliation with Hobie Cat company, but think about it they have undeniably the top designers in the industry today on staff. I'm sure they are not sitting on their laurals. I see in the future a Super TI coming out with a 12 foot width with larger AMA's, strengthened mast mounts and anchored back and side stay mounts with a furling mast top similar to my design, and of course a taller and bigger mainsail, and jib with optional furling spinnaker (or screacher) on a re-enforced bowsprit (like mine). I would like to see 800 lbs plus load capacity. Thats my wish list. Oh thats right I already have one LOL. I got around the design problem of the AMA's being too small and the not wide enough (10 ft) to support the extra sail area by adding a swinging weighted keel (not the preferred way to do it).
I'm not recommending anyone to attempt making these types of mods to their TI unless they have a firm understanding of all the Engineering involved in something like this. I'm a design engineer by profession, and Hobie kayaks are my hobbie for my own personal enjoyment only, and boy oh boy do I enjoy this hobby. I wouldn't have shared anything if it wasn't for Roadrunner and a few others who convinced me to share some of my cool fun stuff.
Have Fun
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Marietta Ga.
Bob,
I read all of the strings related to Jibs / Jenny installs with great interest. I had hoped that Hobie would have come out with an official upgrade by now. I live in the one place that probably has lower average wind speeds than your location. Atlanta, Georgia inland lake sailing where, we wish for thunder storms in the summer just so we can get a breeze.

I raced Catamarans for years and really feel the need to add light wind performance to the TI. I found a bargain used jib at my local sail shop (only one within 100 miles) for $30.00 that works well on my tandem as a 120% jenny. This started me down the path of looking at the roller-furling and flexible mast demands from a new perspective.

I developed a mast top bearing system from PVC pipe that allows for side and fore stay mounting while allowing the mast to rotate freely. I installed stay extenders on the side stays so that the stays could be extended when the jenny is furled allowing the mast to flex and spill air when it is too windy. I then made a PVC roller-furling rig for the Jenny.

Some of my other mods are: tiller extension, Aka brace extenders to make the AKA’s line up properly, double bungees on Amas to Aka connectors, wind direction indicator, Jenny outhaul, through hull GPS/ fish finder, all jenny controls can be operated from either seating position and a reinforced attachment point for the fore stay.

The boat accelerates much faster to surfing speeds and gets up on a plane off the wind in 7 to 9 mph. winds. The boat sails much smoother from the rear seat when single handing, the hull doesn’t bounce and slap the water like it did before the jenny. Another benefit of the side stays is that when they are tensioned up the Amas are very stiff and do not bounce either.

I am still tweaking the rig, and always looking for the next performance enhancement. :D

Land locked Louis
Papya TI

Will post pics as soon as I figure out how too.


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:32 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Louis:
So I no longer have the only one out there, sounds pretty interesting what you did. In my jib I started out with a much larger jib, but kept cutting it back as it was overpowering the boat, I think it's around 30 sq ft now. The nice thing about the roto furlers is if it's too windy I just furl the jib in some.
I recently put a bowsprit and rotofurler on my spinnaker which works better than I anticipated. I used to always launch my spinnaker then bring it in and place in a turtle bag, it was kind of a pain so I seldom used the spin as a result. But with the roto furler I can launch and retract it in a couple seconds so I now use it all the time for any downwind (90-270). The only issue I had was I used too light a line for the furler the first time out and the furler line broke right in front of the harbor in a 20 mph wind. I had to drop anchor and climb out on the bowsprit to pull the sail in, it about beat me to death. Pretty embarrasing as a half dozen WETA's went past me on their way back in ( a big regatta was going on that weekend). Since putting in a stronger furl line I have had no difficulties.

To post pictures it easiest to setup an account on photobucket, and post your pictures there, you then press the img command above and paste the direct link from photobucket in between the two img commands. You can use any photo hosting site as long as the setting can be made public.
Bob

Here is my bow sprit and spin Image


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 Post subject: Re: Spinnaker kit needed
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Marietta Ga.
Hope these pictures show up well, winter has arrived, sailing days are fewer and shorter. it was getting dark when I tried to take these photos.

http://s1081.photobucket.com/albums/j353/louis_deluca/Hobie%20Tandem%20modifications%20Album/

Image

Quote:
Admin edited the image links

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Marietta Ga.


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