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 Post subject: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:47 pm 
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18 With genakker, have a look..
Image
I will install my new "code zero" this spring : I tried rolling up with a classic drum roller...it could not do the job of rolling up quickly and completely. If all goes well I should be able to roll up when going through the wind. And smoothly roll out when the boat has gone trough the wind.
Should work...
Michel

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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:28 am 
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Location: Metuchen NJ
does that sail have a luff wire? or did you install a second forestay? or neither?

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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:39 pm 
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Location: SE Michigan / NE Indiana
If it furls, I think it would have to have a luff wire. Wouldn't it?

Looks Awesome, BTW. Maybe JollyMon needs an upgrade.

The cross-hull support and front tramp looks pretty cool too.

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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
interesting

What's its sail area. Interesting to compare it to the reaching assym spinn.

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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:09 am 
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1. I had the gennaker made by copying the way the jib is made. So the front is zippered and looks exactly like the 18 jib does. The idea was to zipper it up along a shroud going up to the point where the spi was attached to the mast (a few feet above the jib attachment point) This did not work well..the sail area is so big to zipper that monster while sailing and the wind catches the sail...
The way I do it now is to have the gennaker in rolled up state in a bag (like a long fluo sausage) on the tramp (with a "fixed" inner non-torsion rope) and launch it from there; I looked at the Extreme 40 guys do it for inspiration.
2. The total sail area should be around 21square meters my sailmaker told me.
3. The cross hull support was actually not made especially for the gennaker, the front tramp was one of the mods I added when we took Mana on a 3 week trip around Corsica (the Med) : see the post about adding a motor on an 18 (I posted some pics about that trip + more info about the mods to the boat)
The idea for a gennaker came on that trip round Corsica when we had a few days with near zero winds and had to switch on the motor to get to where we we going.
So we only use the gennaker when the wind is not above 2Bft. The attachment point is well above the support given by the shrouds and I would not want to break the top part of my mast....
This has been a choice between either a gennaker or a spi, I figured we were going already pretty fast downwind without a spi (even with not much wind) but rather slow in poor wind conditions with the wind coming from the front (or half wind as we say here) + I did not want a spi pole on my tramp in front : that tramp is great to sleep on !!
Michel

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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:38 am 
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Location: Metuchen NJ
Michel,
thanks for the detailed reply. it looks like the second headstay is also attached to the adjuster above the roller furler, yes?

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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:31 am 
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Hi Chris,
Indeed the headstay is attached to the adjuster above the roller furler. However this set-up you see on the photo taken last summer (aaaaaaahhhh where is the
summer ?) will change to a code zero type furler when the boat goes back on the beach in may.
In a way the set up of the genakker was almost an exact copy of the set up of the jib except that the Hobie furler drum system just did not roll up the genakker well and fast enough (btw the jib system works perfectly for the jib itself) + will install a anti-twist luff rope inside the genakker.
Michel

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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:12 am 
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Have a look at the Hobie Pearl for some more ideas - it does have a smaller spinnaker, possibly in the 16 sqm range.

Roller furling works quite well, be careful heading into the wind to furl it, lots of places for spinnaker to catch. Rather furl downwind with main shading it.


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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:53 am 
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Thanks for your thoughts on the Pearl.
However....they (Hobie Cat) call the big sail at the end of the pole a Genakker. And viewing the photo's it looks to me they sail it as as spinnaker : reach an broad reach.
Now the difference between a Gen and a Spi would be that a Gen is for the wind coming in front and to the side and the Spi for the wind coming from behind. Anyone thoughts on that ?
Michel

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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:32 pm 
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Europeguy: I would rather define them as so, a spinnacker is a symmetric sail, i.e. both leaches have the same lengths (as in the traditional "balloony" spinnackers) whereas a gennacker is assymetrical in shape (like a genua but for more open angles). I guess that's why we nowadays have the sails called Code 0 and Screacher. I would call your sail one of those two, but don't take my word for it... Just my understanding.

Thank's a lot for sharing your tweaks and fixes! I have myself been thinking of a front trampoline for some time, but not a square one. I use a pole.

Brgds, Johannes (Sweden)

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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:12 am 
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Location: Metuchen NJ
Michel,
as I examine your photos more closely, I realize you've created a complete second bridle-headstay assembly for your gennaker-genoa-asym sail. what did you use as the attachment hardware at the bows, and how is it fastened?

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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:08 am 
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Thanks to Johannes for your views & insights on the use of the Genakker/Spi. I 'm still experimenting with the optimal way to sail the genakker. I wish you success with creating your own front tramp (think about making it big enough to relax & walk on !), you won't regret it ! Have a look at the post Outboard on a 18 : I posted a lot of pictures about the front tramp.

To Chris :
You're right, my Genakker headstay is somewhat a copy of the jib system.
Fixing : at the very tip of the bow are the points that were used to hold the spi pole. If you do not see these holes/fixing points on your 18 just drill a hole through the tip (have a look at the Hobie 16 : the front bridles of the 16 are attached in this way) Again : copy the way the 16 uses nyloc nut, plastic nut , bolt and eye for a secure and correct set-up. Where the two bridles come together to attach the headstay I used to use the same roller furler as the jib, however :
this did not work well for several reasons, firstly this big sail needs a lot of rolling and the amount of rope available in the drum is just not enough. Secondly : the whole rolling procedure does not go smoothly (I never have any problem furling my jib tough) and I came to realize that I was going to have to furl the gen each time I would go through the wind (the space between the gen bridle and the jib bridle is just to narrow to smoothly pass the gen trough) and unfurl when the boat is on the other tack.
So this winter I went to the Paris Boat Show and bought a code zero furler, a small Ronstan "code zero". The idea to try it this way came from our eXtreme 40 colleagues http://www.extreme40.org/ (Have a look at these crazy guys !) I think that furling/unfurling with this continuous roller system will go smoothly, in 3 months (boat on the beach) I will know.
Rest of set up : the head of the bridle has at the end free spinning thingy (don't know the name in English) and is attached to the former Spi attachment on the mast (about a metre above the jib attachment).
Important modification I made : I raise and lower the gen from a bag on the tramp, so there is a clamp ( + purchase) fixed on the mast to hold the gen up. The idea is that I only use the whole Gen set up on days with low wind conditions : there is no need (as I see it) to fix the whole thing up permanently (the Gen bridles are not fixed permanently, only when the wind is low does the Gen set up get made)
Hope this answers your questions.
Michel

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 Post subject: Re: 18 with Genakker
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:20 am 
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Thanks Michel, my first boat was a Hobie 16 so I'm familiar with the bow tang setup. I did do some research on Code Zero furlers and agree the Ronstan Series 60 unit is a good choice. I'm considering purchasing a 120% genoa to use for cruising and your setup is an interesting option.

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